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Tuber vs. Corm
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From: plantnut at macconnect.com (Dewey Fisk) on 1999.01.12 at 00:54:07(2879)
I was talking with a Ph.D Botanist (name withheld for obvious reasons) who
is a recognized authority on different types of bulbs.... He said, when I
asked him, that Amorphophallus is a corm and not a tuber or bulb. I think
he said something about the cell structure.....
Do we want to start this discussion again....???
Which is it?
Dewey
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Dewey E. Fisk, Plant Nut
THE PHILODENDRON PHREAQUE
Your Source for Tropical Araceae
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From: Don Burns <burns at mobot.mobot.org> on 1999.01.12 at 01:08:38(2881)
> Do we want to start this discussion again....???
>
Yes, I would like to see this discussion resume. The definitions of the
two were nebulous when I studied (probably a poor choice of words) high
school biology. And I remain confused to this day.
What are acceptable definitions of the two? And then where/how does
Amorphophallus fit into each?
Don
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Don Burns Plantation, FL USA Zone 10b
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From: MOTO_DO at t-online.de (Ihr Name) on 1999.01.13 at 01:20:49(2883)
First of all how do you define a corm, did you mean the botanical
terminus "cormus"?
If yes, then in my opinion the corm is the wrong word.
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What I learned was that the corm (cormus) means an organism which had a
stem and a leaf. Those plants (and all higher Plants are so called)
where called Cormophytes. The Cormophytes where opposed to the
Thallophytes.
Then is there the word tuber:
My definition for a tuber is that the axle is swollen and have the
function as nutritive depot and the leafs where reduced to thin squamous
elements. For example tubers are: Potatoes (Solanum tuberosum,
Topinambur (Helianthus tuberous) or Colchicum.
In Germany is another term existing. It is called "Wurzelknollen" I did
not know the English word but translated it means "Root tubers".
You find it for example in Genus "Orchis".
The difference to tubers is the lacking of the reduced leafs and the
existing of a Calyptra also another inner structure.
Hoping the definitions would help a little bit.
What never in the Araceae appears are bulbs.
Thomas Mottl
moto_do@t-online.de
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From: "Dr. C. R. Waldron" <cwaldron at frognet.net> on 1999.01.13 at 01:39:07(2886)
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I thought the most interesting reply on the last go round was from =
Wilbert. If I remember correctly, he said that in Dutch no distinction =
is made--the same word is used for both structures (is that correct =
Wilbert?). We are well aware that in taxonomy there are the "lumpers" =
and the "splitters." Do we have the same among the =
morphologists?--especially the English-speaking morphologists?
Yes, we all want to know what it "really" is. But I am reminded of =
Alice's discussion with the Gnat
through the Looking Glass and what Alice Saw There, Lewis Carroll):
Regarding insects, Alice says to the Gnat: "I =
can tell you the names of some of them." "Of course they answer to =
their names?" the Gnat remarked carelessly. "I never knew them to do =
it," Alice replies. "What's the use of their having names," the Gnat =
asked, "if they won't answer to them?" "No use to them," said Alice; =
"but it's useful to the people that name them, I suppose. If not, why =
do things have names at all?" "I can't say," said the Gnat. "In the =
wood down there, they've got no names--"
On the last round I insisted that they were tubers but now I wonder why. =
Is it just so we can scoff with an air of superiority at those who use =
the "wrong" name when we all know exactly what is meant anyway?
Corms or tubers? Interesting. Any why are the little offsets in =
Amorphophallus bulbifer, muelleri, etc., and Pinellia ternata, etc. =
called bulbils?
Clarence
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Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 7:57 PM
To: cwaldron@frognet.net
Subject: Tuber vs. Corm
I was talking with a Ph.D Botanist (name withheld for obvious reasons) =
who
is a recognized authority on different types of bulbs.... He said, when =
I
asked him, that Amorphophallus is a corm and not a tuber or bulb. I =
think
he said something about the cell structure.....
Do we want to start this discussion again....???
Which is it?
Dewey
Dewey E. Fisk, Plant Nut
THE PHILODENDRON PHREAQUE
Your Source for Tropical Araceae
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From: Paul Resslar <presslar at mailhost.vwc.edu> on 1999.01.13 at 01:44:07(2887)
At 06:58 PM 1/11/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I was talking with a Ph.D Botanist (name withheld for obvious reasons) who
>is a recognized authority on different types of bulbs.... He said, when I
>asked him, that Amorphophallus is a corm and not a tuber or bulb. I think
>he said something about the cell structure.....
>
>Do we want to start this discussion again....???
>
>Which is it?
>Dewey
>
>Dewey E. Fisk, Plant Nut
>THE PHILODENDRON PHREAQUE
>Your Source for Tropical Araceae
>
>
Dewey:
I don't know what definition your botanist was using, but I define a
corm as a compressed, usually subterranean, modified stem that is
surrounded by dry, scale-like leaves. A tuber is a thickened, compressed,
more or less fleshy, usually underground stem. Using these definitions,
the modified underground stems of the species of Amorphophallus are tubers.
I have not seen any evidence of the modified stems being surrounded by
dry, scale-like leaves. The problem is that some of the tubers have a
corm-like shape with a large apical bud. From what I have seen of the
genus, the underground stems are quite varied. Some look very much like a
rhizome, some look like the "typical" tuber, and others look like corm. We
are looking at a continuum here, and definitions, at least simple ones that
you learn in school, usually only cover the usual, most common conditions.
The thing that I think is important is looking at the range of
modifications, then I think that it is obvious that they are tubers. That
is this Ph.D.'s two-cents worth.
Paul M. Resslar
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Professor of Biology
Virginia Wesleyan College
1584 Wesleyan Drive
Norfolk, Virginia 23502-5599
U.S.A.
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From: Wilbert Hetterscheid <hetter at vkc.nl> on 1999.01.13 at 15:18:56(2890)
I suggest we file this discussion somewhere, so that it doesn't
resurface all the time. My two Euro-cents:
Bulb: this is a condensed stem or stem part, INCLUDING all appendages!
Therefore a bulb shows e.g. scales, which are modified leaves, used for
storage (Lilium!), or storage scales and some outer, thin, protective
scales (Iris, Crocus). Obviously no aroid exists (....I hope...) that
shows such a device. Quite often, bulbs also contain the new season's
growth in condensed form (inflorescence etc.).
Tuber: modified stem or stem part, for storage WITHOUT appendages (or
non-modified ones). So, in a bulb, the appendages form the main storage
facility, wheras in a tuber, the stem (-part) itself swells and performs
the storage function. Therefore a tuber has no thickened appendages but
may have thin scales protecting buds or whatever. A tuber may contain
more than one growth-module (e.g. some Anchomanes species) or just one
(Amorphophallus).
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A rhizome is in my opinion nothing more than an elongate tuber (or vice
versa), often containing more nodes (some Arisaemas), more rarely only
one (some Typhoniums). .
Corm: here we get into trouble with differentiating this from tuber. One
book I have claims that a corm is annual but the rest of the definition
is identical to tuber. This would fit a tuber (consisting of one node)
that is renewed every season, which would include 97% of Amorphophallus.
In Dutch, there is no distinction between tuber and corm, they are all
called "knol", whereas a bulb is called a "bol". So much for Dutch.....
However, I fail to see a significant difference between corm and tuber,
but any colleague of mine reading this is welcome to correct me.
This leaves one phalloid phenomenon: the "chained tubers" of Am.
arnautovii, coaetaneus and pingbianensis): here we see a new tuber built
every year BUT the old ones do not die immediately and remain,
developing a chain of tubers. This could well be an intermediate
situation between a multi-noded rhizome and a single annual tuber. No
real name for it. It is technically called a "moniliform rhizome". Go
figure.............
Now to some of the individual contributions to this discussion:
Don Burns: Amorphophallus has a tuber, with the exception of three
rhizomatous species (hayi, verticillatus and rhizomatosus) and the
aforementioned "moniliform" ones.. In the strict sense, accepting the
corm as something different, it would be corm, based on the annual
nature of it. But I use "tuber".
Dewey: the remark of your PhD guy about cells is unknown to me. I have
found no definition using this character. Anybody?
Jeanne: your supplier is wrong in using "bulb" for tuberous (what's in a
word!!) aroids. Proper pronunciation of Latin botanical words/names is a
pure fiction. All Romans who knew about it are long since dead..........
Don't make a fuss of it. Every claim made that there are internationally
accepted pronunciation rules is false.
Paul Resslar: I don't think a corm needs to have scales. I found no
definition to that effect. If this definition would be the correct one
though, then we would indeed have a more useful distinction between
corms and tubers. The "rhizome"-like Amorphophallus tubers you mention
(like as in longituberosus, albispathus, Peudodracontium species) are in
fact vertically elongate, mono-nodular tubers. They do not essentially
differ from the globose or depressed tubers common to many Amorphs.
(however, recently I have found some species with very strange looking
vertically elongate tubers which suggest to be
multi-nodular............AAAAAARGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
Thomas Mottl: yup, cormus is indeed an entire plant body with
differentiated appendages, and is indeed not a synonym of "corm". Root
tubers is another matter: as long as tuber, corm etc. are based on
definitions using a reduced stem, they are not the same thing and must
be mentioned with an adjective pointing to the location of the structure
("root" in "root tuber").
Clarence Waldron: we seem to agree that corm and tuber may not be such a
useful distinction. This is underscored by the apparent lack of a
universally known distinction based on definitions. A bulbil is
something to think about, I agree. A bulbil in e.g. Amorphophallus
bulbifer is a swollen leaf rachis part and as such technically not a
direct development/modification of the stem. A definition I found says:
a small bulb of bulb-like growth, arising from a leaf axil or in place
of a flower. This would exclude the leaf bulbils just mentioned. Maybe
the word "leaf" needs to be included for that example, as in "root
tuber".
A bigger problem may be the term for the "offsets" that many tuberous
aroids develop.......(headache coming up............)
Bulberous greetings,
Wilbert
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From: Jmh98law at aol.com on 1999.01.13 at 21:16:00(2893)
In a message dated 1/13/99 7:07:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, hetter@vkc.nl
writes:
<< I suggest we file this discussion somewhere, so that it doesn't
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resurface all the time. >>
Thank you for your contribution, which HAS been filed on my hard drive for
future reference.
Jeanne Hannah
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From: goroff at idcnet.com (Iza & Carol Goroff) on 1999.01.13 at 21:24:44(2894)
I believe that a corm shows cylindrical symmetry about a vertical axis,
whereas a tuber does not.
Iza Goroff
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Whitewater Wisconsin
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From: Jonathan Ertelt <jonathan.ertelt at vanderbilt.edu> on 1999.01.14 at 23:19:32(2900)
>This question was discussed at some length last fall on a gesneriad growers
>listserve - one member found the following definitions on the web:
>
>On the GardenWeb site (http://www.gardenweb.com/glossary/):
>
>Corm: The enlarged fleshy base of a stem, bulb-like but solid.
>
>Tuber: A thickened and short subterranean branch having numerous
>buds or eyes and used for food storage.
>
>
>
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>>From the glossary of the Flora of Australia
>(http://155.187.10.12/glossary/fl-aust.html):
>
>Corm: A fleshy, swollen stem base, usually underground, in which
>food reserves are stored between growing seasons.
>
>Tuber: A storage organ formed by swelling of an underground stem
>or the distal end of a root
>
>
>>From the University of Illinois extension service
>(http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~robsond/solutions/horticulture/gloss.htm
>l):
>
>Corm: Swollen underground stem tissue. The basal plate is
>located on the bottom of the corm; roots develop from this plate.
>
>Tuber: Short, fat underground stem tissue with growing points,
>buds or "eyes" as in a potato. Tubers can be flat, rounded or
>irregular in shape. (Sinningia is used as an example of a
>tuberous plant)
>
>
>So, from these definitions, it would seem that a corm is ALWAYS
>the swollen BASE of a stem. There is a basal plate on the bottom
>of a corm from which the roots arise. A bulb is the swelling of
>an underground stem (not necessarily the base of an above-ground
>stem), and has multiple growing points.
>
>An additional point that was made, after it was suggested that tubers and
>corms may be the same thing (essentially), but having developed from two
>different evolutionary lines, was that to the best of the writer's
>knowledge, no monocot families had tubers.
>While not an expert, my inclination after some thought is to agree until
>exceptions can be raised. An interesting side point for someone to
>explore. Monocots seem to have either bulbs or corms as their underground
>storage units -- dicots have tubers.
>Another note, especially significant for aroid growers - corms do not
>necessarily have the basal plate located at the bottom--more often than not
>with the corm-growth aroids, the roots are coming out above the storage
>tissue, not from below.
>
>Another point, along a different path -- on the subject of bulbils as the
>corm offshoots produced at the base or along the stem at leaf axils on some
>aroids. My sense is that this is a non-scientific classification, which
>means any term goes. The structures are kind of bulb-like (but not
>really), therefore, bulbils. Arguing terms of this sort could go on and on
>and, well, you get the point. Kind of like ginger root, meaning, of
>course, the stem, or even more abstractly, bromeliad "pups," the basal
>sidebranch growths that arise along with or immediately following flowering
>with most bromeliads most of the time. Are these really pups? And on it
>goes.
>
>Above all, good growing.
>- Jonathan
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From: alistair_hay at rbgsyd.gov.au on 1999.01.15 at 15:40:23(2902)
My 2 cents worth!!:
I agree with Wilbert on the whole.
No bulbs (storage in persistent leaf bases and/or scale leaves) in
Araceae known to me (Typhonodorum the nearest???).
Most common morphological terms were invented for the depauperate
flora of Europe. Even the most fundamental terms such as stem, leaf
and root, let alone corm/tuber/rhizome, do not always work as clear
cut categories in tropical plants.
Corm and tuber and rhizome intergrade in Araceae. I would think that
corm and tuber are at least sometimes interchangeable terms in say
Amorphophallus, and that tuber and rhizome are at least sometimes
interchangeable terms in say Colocasia. Alocasia produces corm-like
bulbils!!!
This is no help at all!
Rigorous definitions, when they are really needed, have to be
developed purposefully on a case by case (e.g. family by family or
genus by genus) basis (though that creates interesting problems if
structure needs to be codified in order to define the group). `Corm'
to an Iridaceae person is likely to be a different thing from corm to
an Araceae person. This doesn't necessarily matter.
Pronunciation is a free-for-all, but make it BEAUTIFUL to other
people. Most plant names are worth savouring - even Amorphophallus!
Alistair Hay
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______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Tuber vs. Corm
Author: at mailgate
Date: 12/1/99 19:45
At 06:58 PM 1/11/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I was talking with a Ph.D Botanist (name withheld for obvious reasons) who
>is a recognized authority on different types of bulbs.... He said, when I
>asked him, that Amorphophallus is a corm and not a tuber or bulb. I think
>he said something about the cell structure.....
>
>Do we want to start this discussion again....???
>
>Which is it?
>Dewey
>
>Dewey E. Fisk, Plant Nut
>THE PHILODENDRON PHREAQUE
>Your Source for Tropical Araceae
>
>
Dewey:
I don't know what definition your botanist was using, but I define a
corm as a compressed, usually subterranean, modified stem that is
surrounded by dry, scale-like leaves. A tuber is a thickened, compressed,
more or less fleshy, usually underground stem. Using these definitions,
the modified underground stems of the species of Amorphophallus are tubers.
I have not seen any evidence of the modified stems being surrounded by
dry, scale-like leaves. The problem is that some of the tubers have a
corm-like shape with a large apical bud. From what I have seen of the
genus, the underground stems are quite varied. Some look very much like a
rhizome, some look like the "typical" tuber, and others look like corm. We
are looking at a continuum here, and definitions, at least simple ones that
you learn in school, usually only cover the usual, most common conditions.
The thing that I think is important is looking at the range of
modifications, then I think that it is obvious that they are tubers. That
is this Ph.D.'s two-cents worth.
Paul M. Resslar
Professor of Biology
Virginia Wesleyan College
1584 Wesleyan Drive
Norfolk, Virginia 23502-5599
U.S.A.
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