Orontium seed germination

From: Adam Black epiphyte1 at earthlink.net> on 2006.05.13 at 01:23:29(14175) Does anyone have any tips for growing Orontium aquaticum from seed? I know the seeds germinate within the fruits, float for a while after becoming detatched from the infructescense, and then sink, but that is about all I know. A few of the fruits that I opened up had already started to germinate, so I assume they are ready? Do I need to peel the tough covering off the seeds, or does this protective covering need to stay intact and the seedling will penetrate through it? These are very different from Anthurium and other Aroid seeds I am used to with a soft fruit that the seeds are simply squeezed out of. Right now I have a pot filled 3/4 full of soil, submerged in a cattle trough so that there is a couple of inches (which equals something like several centimeters - but this in an American aroid!) of water over the soil line, but the rim of the pot is above the water line to contain the floating unpeeled fruits. Does this sound like I am on the right track? Would it be better if the seeds were in wet but not submerged conditions? Any other suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks! Adam +More _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "?goston J?nos" agoston.janos at citromail.hu> on 2006.05.13 at 06:07:06(14177) Dear Adam, I received this year a cuple of seeds from a BG (=Botanical Garden). They were packed in wet sphagnum. There were allready 1-3 leaves on the fruit. So I think you should not remove anything. This is only my opinion. I hope somebody will conform or confute this... Jani +More ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Black To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 3:23 AM Subject: [Aroid-l] Orontium seed germination Does anyone have any tips for growing Orontium aquaticum from seed? I know the seeds germinate within the fruits, float for a while after becoming detatched from the infructescense, and then sink, but that is about all I know. A few of the fruits that I opened up had already started to germinate, so I assume they are ready? Do I need to peel the tough covering off the seeds, or does this protective covering need to stay intact and the seedling will penetrate through it? These are very different from Anthurium and other Aroid seeds I am used to with a soft fruit that the seeds are simply squeezed out of.Right now I have a pot filled 3/4 full of soil, submerged in a cattle trough so that there is a couple of inches (which equals something like several centimeters - but this in an American aroid!) of water over the soil line, but the rim of the pot is above the water line to contain the floating unpeeled fruits. Does this sound like I am on the right track? Would it be better if the seeds were in wet but not submerged conditions? Any other suggestions would be much appreciated.Thanks!Adam_______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at msn.com> on 2006.05.13 at 12:03:41(14179) Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:23 AM To : Discussion of aroids Subject : [Aroid-l] Orontium seed germination Dear Adam, I cultivated Orontium from a collected adult plant a few years ago, and had it bloom and produce seeds which I grew in cultivation to adulthood. Dr. Croat photographed my plants of Orontium in bloom during a visit to my home back when. All that you report re: the structure of the seeds, etc (below) is correct. I refer you to an article I wrote and which was published in Aroideana Vol. 16 in 1993, ''Experiencing Urospathas", in which I suggest ways to sucessfully grow aquatics for long periods without the 'soil' rotting and killing the plant by being immersed under water. In case you do not have access to this article, basically the method consists of using a half-and-half mix of heavy/coarse sand with a little leaf mulch or other compost/soil mixed in. However---this is placed above a 3" layer of larva stones, crock, etc. placed in the bottom of the pot. The soil-mix is placed on top of the stones, and the seed or plant potted in this 'soil'. The pot is then placed in a large saucer or other container which contains no more than 2" of water, and so the 'soil' mix is kept ABOVE and out of the actual water while being kept constantly wet. Water these pots/plants from above till you observe roots growing out of the pot`s drain holes into the saucer of water, this is super-important as at first the soil-mix is never wet enough from just absorbsing water from below for some aquatics until this happens. Change out the water in the saucer regularly/weekly. Fert. w/ a VERY weak liquid fert. on a regular basis. In a few weeks, when you check your pot of 'soil' that you have submerged in your cattle trough, below the 'soil' surface will stink like a rotting body, and no plant can grow in this. The late and GREAT Dr. Monroe Birdsey did grow some aquatics (Typhonodorum, Urospatha, Lasia) in pots that were completely submerged in his concrete fish tanks, but his pots were of pure sand, and their fert. consisted of the fishes waste products. He confided that on occasion he placed a fert. tablet or two buried deep in the sand in these pots, he knew which brand of tablet to use which did not poison the water and so kill his fish! For germinating/growing the larger seeds of Orontium, don`t peel the seeds, and I`d use the same method/pot that you have, but change out the soil for mainly coarse sand, and place the surface of the sand in the pot a tad above the surface of the water till they root. I believe in nature the seeds drop into water and float for a while till they wash up on the sides of the body of water, where they take root. Those that sink before they 'hit the beach', as it were, may not make it! By the way, the above method works well with Montrichardia, Typhonium and Typhonodorum, all have simular seeds and germination stratagies Good Luck, I hope this helps. Julius +More Does anyone have any tips for growing Orontium aquaticum from seed? I know the seeds germinate within the fruits, float for a while after becoming detatched from the infructescense, and then sink, but that is about all I know. A few of the fruits that I opened up had already started to germinate, so I assume they are ready? Do I need to peel the tough covering off the seeds, or does this protective covering need to stay intact and the seedling will penetrate through it? These are very different from Anthurium and other Aroid seeds I am used to with a soft fruit that the seeds are simply squeezed out of. Right now I have a pot filled 3/4 full of soil, submerged in a cattle trough so that there is a couple of inches (which equals something like several centimeters - but this in an American aroid!) of water over the soil line, but the rim of the pot is above the water line to contain the floating unpeeled fruits. Does this sound like I am on the right track? Would it be better if the seeds were in wet but not submerged conditions? Any other suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks! Adam<< _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Adam Black epiphyte1 at earthlink.net> on 2006.05.13 at 18:28:24(14181) Thanks for your reply, Julius. I am familiar with your method for growing aquatic aroids in pots that you have described before (and use it on my Cyrtospermas), but always assumed that was more geared for those species that prefer swampy but not regularly submerged ground as opposed to those sp. that seem to be predominantly emergent aquatics. I realize that both types of habitat preference experience both dry and wet extremes, but it seems like Orontium prefers to be grown as an emergent (at least I have never seen it growing in unsubmerged places during times of "normal" water levels). I had not considered your method as I figured it might be too exposed and thought more water might be required and more natural for germination of seedlings. It sounded like you are recommending growing this plant to maturity using your potted method once the seedlings are established (as opposed to germination), but these are intended to be planted out as large display colony in the water gardens at the botanical gardens where I work around the single plant we currently have, rooted in the bottom sediments. I am also starting a hardy aroid garden featuring terrestrial as well as aquatic aroids, where I intend to include some Orontium as well. In my original message I had not specified the components of my "soil" I was using. I was using a 50/50 mix of peat and coarse sand, the same mix we use for propagating water lilies. The cattle trough (also used for water lily propagation) has been set up for years and is biologically active (including fish, amphibians and various invertebrates) and includes a pump to gently circulate water around. Thanks again for all your help! Adam +More Julius Boos wrote: Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:23 AM To : Discussion of aroids Subject : [Aroid-l] Orontium seed germination Dear Adam, I cultivated Orontium from a collected adult plant a few years ago, and had it bloom and produce seeds which I grew in cultivation to adulthood. Dr. Croat photographed my plants of Orontium in bloom during a visit to my home back when. All that you report re: the structure of the seeds, etc (below) is correct. I refer you to an article I wrote and which was published in Aroideana Vol. 16 in 1993, ''Experiencing Urospathas", in which I suggest ways to sucessfully grow aquatics for long periods without the 'soil' rotting and killing the plant by being immersed under water. In case you do not have access to this article, basically the method consists of using a half-and-half mix of heavy/coarse sand with a little leaf mulch or other compost/soil mixed in. However---this is placed above a 3" layer of larva stones, crock, etc. placed in the bottom of the pot. The soil-mix is placed on top of the stones, and the seed or plant potted in this 'soil'. The pot is then placed in a large saucer or other container which contains no more than 2" of water, and so the 'soil' mix is kept ABOVE and out of the actual water while being kept constantly wet. Water these pots/plants from above till you observe roots growing out of the pot`s drain holes into the saucer of water, this is super-important as at first the soil-mix is never wet enough from just absorbsing water from below for some aquatics until this happens. Change out the water in the saucer regularly/weekly. Fert. w/ a VERY weak liquid fert. on a regular basis. In a few weeks, when you check your pot of 'soil' that you have submerged in your cattle trough, below the 'soil' surface will stink like a rotting body, and no plant can grow in this. The late and GREAT Dr. Monroe Birdsey did grow some aquatics (Typhonodorum, Urospatha, Lasia) in pots that were completely submerged in his concrete fish tanks, but his pots were of pure sand, and their fert. consisted of the fishes waste products. He confided that on occasion he placed a fert. tablet or two buried deep in the sand in these pots, he knew which brand of tablet to use which did not poison the water and so kill his fish! For germinating/growing the larger seeds of Orontium, don`t peel the seeds, and I`d use the same method/pot that you have, but change out the soil for mainly coarse sand, and place the surface of the sand in the pot a tad above the surface of the water till they root. I believe in nature the seeds drop into water and float for a while till they wash up on the sides of the body of water, where they take root. Those that sink before they 'hit the beach', as it were, may not make it! By the way, the above method works well with Montrichardia, Typhonium and Typhonodorum, all have simular seeds and germination stratagies Good Luck, I hope this helps. Julius Does anyone have any tips for growing Orontium aquaticum from seed? I know the seeds germinate within the fruits, float for a while after becoming detatched from the infructescense, and then sink, but that is about all I know. A few of the fruits that I opened up had already started to germinate, so I assume they are ready? Do I need to peel the tough covering off the seeds, or does this protective covering need to stay intact and the seedling will penetrate through it? These are very different from Anthurium and other Aroid seeds I am used to with a soft fruit that the seeds are simply squeezed out of. Right now I have a pot filled 3/4 full of soil, submerged in a cattle trough so that there is a couple of inches (which equals something like several centimeters - but this in an American aroid!) of water over the soil line, but the rim of the pot is above the water line to contain the floating unpeeled fruits. Does this sound like I am on the right track? Would it be better if the seeds were in wet but not submerged conditions? Any other suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks! Adam<< _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at msn.com> on 2006.05.13 at 22:18:25(14185) Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Saturday, May 13, 2006 6:28 PM To : Discussion of aroids Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] Orontium seed germination Dear Adam, Based on the additional info. which you supplied, you might want to germinate the seeds as I described, and once firmly rooted in the substrate, the pots, containing the mix you describe, can be submerged completely underwater a little at a time with the tops of the leaves just 'floating' at the waters surface till they are like the ones at Monroe`s place used to be in his fish ponds. I`m certain that you will be sucessful with your plan! Good luck! The Orontiums where I collected my original plant were growing in black soil in extremely shallow water at the edge of a slowly flowing, very shallow stream near Sebring, Florida, and in the dry would have been out of the water. Good Growing, Julius +More Thanks for your reply, Julius. I am familiar with your method for growing aquatic aroids in pots that you have described before (and use it on my Cyrtospermas), but always assumed that was more geared for those species that prefer swampy but not regularly submerged ground as opposed to those sp. that seem to be predominantly emergent aquatics. I realize that both types of habitat preference experience both dry and wet extremes, but it seems like Orontium prefers to be grown as an emergent (at least I have never seen it growing in unsubmerged places during times of "normal" water levels). I had not considered your method as I figured it might be too exposed and thought more water might be required and more natural for germination of seedlings. It sounded like you are recommending growing this plant to maturity using your potted method once the seedlings are established (as opposed to germination), but these are intended to be planted out as large display colony in the water gardens at the botanical gardens where I work around the single plant we currently have, rooted in the bottom sediments. I am also starting a hardy aroid garden featuring terrestrial as well as aquatic aroids, where I intend to include some Orontium as well. In my original message I had not specified the components of my "soil" I was using. I was using a 50/50 mix of peat and coarse sand, the same mix we use for propagating water lilies. The cattle trough (also used for water lily propagation) has been set up for years and is biologically active (including fish, amphibians and various invertebrates) and includes a pump to gently circulate water around. Thanks again for all your help! Adam Julius Boos wrote: From : Adam Black Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:23 AM To : Discussion of aroids Subject : [Aroid-l] Orontium seed germination Dear Adam, I cultivated Orontium from a collected adult plant a few years ago, and had it bloom and produce seeds which I grew in cultivation to adulthood. Dr. Croat photographed my plants of Orontium in bloom during a visit to my home back when. All that you report re: the structure of the seeds, etc (below) is correct. I refer you to an article I wrote and which was published in Aroideana Vol. 16 in 1993, ''Experiencing Urospathas", in which I suggest ways to sucessfully grow aquatics for long periods without the 'soil' rotting and killing the plant by being immersed under water. In case you do not have access to this article, basically the method consists of using a half-and-half mix of heavy/coarse sand with a little leaf mulch or other compost/soil mixed in. However---this is placed above a 3" layer of larva stones, crock, etc. placed in the bottom of the pot. The soil-mix is placed on top of the stones, and the seed or plant potted in this 'soil'. The pot is then placed in a large saucer or other container which contains no more than 2" of water, and so the 'soil' mix is kept ABOVE and out of the actual water while being kept constantly wet. Water these pots/plants from above till you observe roots growing out of the pot`s drain holes into the saucer of water, this is super-important as at first the soil-mix is never wet enough from just absorbsing water from below for some aquatics until this happens. Change out the water in the saucer regularly/weekly. Fert. w/ a VERY weak liquid fert. on a regular basis. In a few weeks, when you check your pot of 'soil' that you have submerged in your cattle trough, below the 'soil' surface will stink like a rotting body, and no plant can grow in this. The late and GREAT Dr. Monroe Birdsey did grow some aquatics (Typhonodorum, Urospatha, Lasia) in pots that were completely submerged in his concrete fish tanks, but his pots were of pure sand, and their fert. consisted of the fishes waste products. He confided that on occasion he placed a fert. tablet or two buried deep in the sand in these pots, he knew which brand of tablet to use which did not poison the water and so kill his fish! For germinating/growing the larger seeds of Orontium, don`t peel the seeds, and I`d use the same method/pot that you have, but change out the soil for mainly coarse sand, and place the surface of the sand in the pot a tad above the surface of the water till they root. I believe in nature the seeds drop into water and float for a while till they wash up on the sides of the body of water, where they take root. Those that sink before they 'hit the beach', as it were, may not make it! By the way, the above method works well with Montrichardia, Typhonium and Typhonodorum, all have simular seeds and germination stratagies Good Luck, I hope this helps. Julius Does anyone have any tips for growing Orontium aquaticum from seed? I know the seeds germinate within the fruits, float for a while after becoming detatched from the infructescense, and then sink, but that is about all I know. A few of the fruits that I opened up had already started to germinate, so I assume they are ready? Do I need to peel the tough covering off the seeds, or does this protective covering need to stay intact and the seedling will penetrate through it? These are very different from Anthurium and other Aroid seeds I am used to with a soft fruit that the seeds are simply squeezed out of. Right now I have a pot filled 3/4 full of soil, submerged in a cattle trough so that there is a couple of inches (which equals something like several centimeters - but this in an American aroid!) of water over the soil line, but the rim of the pot is above the water line to contain the floating unpeeled fruits. Does this sound like I am on the right track? Would it be better if the seeds were in wet but not submerged conditions? Any other suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks! Adam<< _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Adam Black epiphyte1 at earthlink.net> on 2006.05.15 at 04:03:28(14188) Thanks again, Julius! By the way, I never knew Orontium ranged as far south as Sebring, but now see there are records of them all the way down to Collier County on the gulf side and Martin County on the east coast. I have slogged around in nearly every portion of the state and never found them anywhere except in very localized populations in the very northern portion of the peninsula. Thanks! Adam +More Julius Boos wrote: Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Saturday, May 13, 2006 6:28 PM To : Discussion of aroids Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] Orontium seed germination Dear Adam, Based on the additional info. which you supplied, you might want to germinate the seeds as I described, and once firmly rooted in the substrate, the pots, containing the mix you describe, can be submerged completely underwater a little at a time with the tops of the leaves just 'floating' at the waters surface till they are like the ones at Monroe`s place used to be in his fish ponds. I`m certain that you will be sucessful with your plan! Good luck! The Orontiums where I collected my original plant were growing in black soil in extremely shallow water at the edge of a slowly flowing, very shallow stream near Sebring, Florida, and in the dry would have been out of the water. Good Growing, Julius Thanks for your reply, Julius. I am familiar with your method for growing aquatic aroids in pots that you have described before (and use it on my Cyrtospermas), but always assumed that was more geared for those species that prefer swampy but not regularly submerged ground as opposed to those sp. that seem to be predominantly emergent aquatics. I realize that both types of habitat preference experience both dry and wet extremes, but it seems like Orontium prefers to be grown as an emergent (at least I have never seen it growing in unsubmerged places during times of "normal" water levels). I had not considered your method as I figured it might be too exposed and thought more water might be required and more natural for germination of seedlings. It sounded like you are recommending growing this plant to maturity using your potted method once the seedlings are established (as opposed to germination), but these are intended to be planted out as large display colony in the water gardens at the botanical gardens where I work around the single plant we currently have, rooted in the bottom sediments. I am also starting a hardy aroid garden featuring terrestrial as well as aquatic aroids, where I intend to include some Orontium as well. In my original message I had not specified the components of my "soil" I was using. I was using a 50/50 mix of peat and coarse sand, the same mix we use for propagating water lilies. The cattle trough (also used for water lily propagation) has been set up for years and is biologically active (including fish, amphibians and various invertebrates) and includes a pump to gently circulate water around. Thanks again for all your help! Adam Julius Boos wrote: From : Adam Black Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:23 AM To : Discussion of aroids Subject : [Aroid-l] Orontium seed germination Dear Adam, I cultivated Orontium from a collected adult plant a few years ago, and had it bloom and produce seeds which I grew in cultivation to adulthood. Dr. Croat photographed my plants of Orontium in bloom during a visit to my home back when. All that you report re: the structure of the seeds, etc (below) is correct. I refer you to an article I wrote and which was published in Aroideana Vol. 16 in 1993, ''Experiencing Urospathas", in which I suggest ways to sucessfully grow aquatics for long periods without the 'soil' rotting and killing the plant by being immersed under water. In case you do not have access to this article, basically the method consists of using a half-and-half mix of heavy/coarse sand with a little leaf mulch or other compost/soil mixed in. However---this is placed above a 3" layer of larva stones, crock, etc. placed in the bottom of the pot. The soil-mix is placed on top of the stones, and the seed or plant potted in this 'soil'. The pot is then placed in a large saucer or other container which contains no more than 2" of water, and so the 'soil' mix is kept ABOVE and out of the actual water while being kept constantly wet. Water these pots/plants from above till you observe roots growing out of the pot`s drain holes into the saucer of water, this is super-important as at first the soil-mix is never wet enough from just absorbsing water from below for some aquatics until this happens. Change out the water in the saucer regularly/weekly. Fert. w/ a VERY weak liquid fert. on a regular basis. In a few weeks, when you check your pot of 'soil' that you have submerged in your cattle trough, below the 'soil' surface will stink like a rotting body, and no plant can grow in this. The late and GREAT Dr. Monroe Birdsey did grow some aquatics (Typhonodorum, Urospatha, Lasia) in pots that were completely submerged in his concrete fish tanks, but his pots were of pure sand, and their fert. consisted of the fishes waste products. He confided that on occasion he placed a fert. tablet or two buried deep in the sand in these pots, he knew which brand of tablet to use which did not poison the water and so kill his fish! For germinating/growing the larger seeds of Orontium, don`t peel the seeds, and I`d use the same method/pot that you have, but change out the soil for mainly coarse sand, and place the surface of the sand in the pot a tad above the surface of the water till they root. I believe in nature the seeds drop into water and float for a while till they wash up on the sides of the body of water, where they take root. Those that sink before they 'hit the beach', as it were, may not make it! By the way, the above method works well with Montrichardia, Typhonium and Typhonodorum, all have simular seeds and germination stratagies Good Luck, I hope this helps. Julius Does anyone have any tips for growing Orontium aquaticum from seed? I know the seeds germinate within the fruits, float for a while after becoming detatched from the infructescense, and then sink, but that is about all I know. A few of the fruits that I opened up had already started to germinate, so I assume they are ready? Do I need to peel the tough covering off the seeds, or does this protective covering need to stay intact and the seedling will penetrate through it? These are very different from Anthurium and other Aroid seeds I am used to with a soft fruit that the seeds are simply squeezed out of. Right now I have a pot filled 3/4 full of soil, submerged in a cattle trough so that there is a couple of inches (which equals something like several centimeters - but this in an American aroid!) of water over the soil line, but the rim of the pot is above the water line to contain the floating unpeeled fruits. Does this sound like I am on the right track? Would it be better if the seeds were in wet but not submerged conditions? Any other suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks! Adam<< _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

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