[Aroid-l] ubba dubba reticulata

From: botanist at malesiana.com (Peter Boyce) on 2008.07.17 at 06:19:40(18187) Whoa Leland...you have a PHONE LINE.... LUXURY...we have two empty cocoa tins joined by long a string.... before that we had a pigeon... but the cat ate him.... +More ----- Original Message ----- From: "brian lee" To: "Discussion of aroids" Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] ubba dubba reticulata > Dear Derek, > > Aloha. > > I am sorry...please understand that I am a high tech ignoramus and online > neophyte. I am willing to learn. Also undertand that the system in my > neighborhood is still on a rotary phone system. I will change subjects as > our tangential subject switching demands...but, please jump in if we get > carried away. I assumed I could not change the subject line in this > forum...live and learn. > > Aloha, > > Leland > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, derek burch wrote: > >> From: derek burch >> Subject: [Aroid-l] ubba dubba reticulata >> To: "'Discussion of aroids'" >> Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:57 AM >> Dear Pete and Leland and everyone. >> >> >> >> PLEASE don't just click 'Reply" without >> changing the subject line when the >> topic of your email has changed. >> >> >> >> I am interested in alocasias, I am interested in the >> alpha-taxonomist >> drought, but I should like to be able to open the emails >> that refer to a >> topic without having to take a lucky dip into what finally >> amounts to an >> email morass. At the moment it is a bit like my filing >> system in my office >> where everything goes into one file labeled "A" - >> that includes 'A letter', >> 'A reply' and so on. Very quick and easy. I do also >> have an "An" file where >> I put 'An invoice' >> >> , An unpaid account'. >> >> >> >> But I digress . >> >> >> >> Regards, to all, >> >> >> >> Derek >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com >> [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] >> On Behalf Of Peter Boyce >> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 9:12 PM >> To: Discussion of aroids >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata >> >> >> >> Dear Leland, >> >> >> >> Well, where I live unless there is a change in education >> policy to imbue >> those few (and it is FEW) students with some botanical >> aptitude, to gain >> knowledge of the basic building blocks of botany, notably >> comparative >> morphology ecology & geomorphology, the spectre of no >> wide-experience field >> botanists, already a fact in many parts of Asia, will >> become a region-wide >> problem. In fact the whole of taxonomy, let alone >> systematics, is in danger >> of slipping off the curriculum in universities throughout >> the region such >> that only the minute hard-core (essentially botanically >> hard-wired) folks >> will make it through and continue. The problem then will be >> that there are >> increasingly fewer jobs that call for taxonomic expertise >> such that those >> few that wish to remain in the field usually end up earning >> a living doing >> something at the best only tangentially associated with >> their passion. Of >> course the irony is that there has never been a greater >> need for taxonomic >> expertise in order to make the rational decisions required >> to protect the >> remaining tropical habitats. >> >> >> >> Curiously, I am not anywhere near as doubtful or indeed >> pessimistic about >> the increasing use of molecular data and also don't >> altogether agree with >> the total genome argument. Regarding the function of >> various parts of the >> molecular code, in recent years there has been made >> enormous strides in >> understanding what various coding regions 'do' such >> that the link with this >> and evo-devo is now a well established area of scientific >> exploration. Of >> course some of these areas are ferociously expensive but >> with molecular >> extraction methodologies and analyses programmes >> increasingly simplified >> costs are dropping such that basic extraction and >> methodologies are well >> within the budget of even quite modest research >> establishments. >> >> >> >> Regarding the usefulness of molecular data, especially >> vis-a-vis the ability >> of the molecular practitioners to actual identify the >> organisms they are >> studying, yes, I agree, that still far too many molecular >> research outputs >> are the product of lab rats without any practical field >> training and worse >> are oftentimes undertaken without or with only minimal >> taxonomic cross >> fertilization. However, that situation is fast becoming >> history as more and >> more multi-author research outputs based on sound >> alpha-taxonomy, with the >> molecular toolbox being opened only once a decent >> 'traditional' taxonomy is >> established and is testable. This is much the approach we >> are using, with a >> multi-stranded project that is investigating alpha-tax. and >> then >> phylogentics and then using the phylogenies to investigate >> spatial >> evolution, etc. We have been very fotunate to find good >> students who are >> willing to spend the necessary field time as part of their >> molecular-based >> research and as a result have a much more complete >> biological reserach >> toolbox. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The main problem here >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "brian lee" < >> lbmkjm at yahoo.com> >> >> To: "Discussion of aroids" < >> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:45 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata >> >> >> >> > Dear Pete, >> > >> > Aloha. >> > >> > What a shame. What will happen when there are no >> field botanists with the >> knowledge to recognize species in habitat? I have taken >> young molecular >> taxonomists into the field and some of them really have no >> clue what they >> are looking at until you tell them. At this rate, there >> will come a time >> when no field botanists will be able to lead them to their >> samples...which >> they send off to distant labs to analyze the relationships. >> > >> > The other problematic issue I see is that whole >> genomes are not analyzed, >> only sections that are not necessarily associated with >> known >> characteristics. I see a great need for traditional >> botany...but the lure >> of molecular biology is hooking most of the young fish >> these days. One day >> I see entire genomes of all plants being sequenced...which >> is a good thing >> in the long run. There will always be a great need for >> morphologists in the >> field, however...in my humble opinion...until all the >> plants are located on >> GPS and barcoded and linked to the great databases they >> envision. Who will >> control this information? >> > >> > In the meantime,I hope the horticulturists out there >> report their >> observations. Unfortunately, most of these plants are not >> associated with >> good locality data... It will serve as a survey of >> variation,however. >> > >> > Aloha, >> > >> > Leland >> > >> > >> > --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Peter Boyce < >> >> botanist at malesiana.com> wrote: >> > >> >> From: Peter Boyce < >> >> botanist at malesiana.com> >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata >> >> To: "Discussion of aroids" < >> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> >> Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 10:32 PM >> >> Hi Leland, >> >> >> >> I was more thinking along the lines that the >> numerous folks >> >> who grow >> >> Alocasia zebrina might pitch in with observations >> on the >> >> different >> >> menifestation that this species takes in >> cultivation. >> >> >> >> The Flora of the Philippines project is stll >> active but is >> >> suffering from >> >> the same problem besetting several similar >> projects in >> >> Asia, that of a >> >> dearth of botanists tackling alpha-taxonomy and >> the almost >> >> universal problem >> >> that so few students are coming into field-work >> based >> >> botany once they leave >> >> university such that as the few remaining active >> >> field-taxonomists/systematits become fewer still >> there are >> >> a >> >> disproportionately small number of young bloods >> entering >> >> the career. >> >> >> >> Pete >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "brian lee" < >> lbmkjm at yahoo.com> >> >> To: "Discussion of aroids" >> >> < >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:17 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata >> >> >> >> >> >> > Dear Pete, >> >> > >> >> > Aloha. >> >> > >> >> > It is hard to comment on issues that some of >> us have >> >> no knowledge on. >> >> > That is not to say we do not have an >> obsessive desire >> >> for knowledge. We >> >> > wait on bated breath for tidbits of treasure >> from you. >> >> > >> >> > The Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum used to >> participate >> >> in a program called, >> >> > the Philippine Flora Project that was to >> catalog as >> >> many of the in-situ >> >> > plants remaining in the archipelago...which >> was being >> >> destroyed at a pace >> >> > and scale that would see many habitats >> extirpated. I >> >> do not recall the >> >> > percentage of the destruction, but it was a >> >> significant proportion. My >> >> > point here is that if habitats are destroyed, >> it will >> >> be impossible to >> >> > reconstruct some of these interesting pearls >> of >> >> information we all desire. >> >> > I can ask Clyde Imada if Alocasia species >> were >> >> catalogued in this >> >> > program...hopefully your contact will respond >> with a >> >> wealth of new >> >> > information to enlighten the darkness. I am >> >> optimistic that Melanie will >> >> > answer the call. >> >> > >> >> > Aloha, >> >> > >> >> > Leland >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Peter Boyce >> >> < >> botanist at malesiana.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> From: Peter Boyce < >> >> botanist at malesiana.com> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina >> reticulata >> >> >> To: "Discussion of aroids" >> >> < >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> >> >> Cc: "Melanie P. Medecilo - >> hotmail" >> >> < >> mmedecilo at hotmail.com> >> >> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:45 AM >> >> >> Hi Denis, >> >> >> >> >> >> I am quite surprised that no one has >> picked up on >> >> the last >> >> >> comment in your >> >> >> posting regarding the status of A. >> zebrina in >> >> cultivation. >> >> >> >> >> >> As you know, Alistair Hay in his >> herbarium-based >> >> account of >> >> >> Philippines' >> >> >> Alocasia (Gardens' Bulletin Singapore >> 51: 1-41 >> >> (1999)) >> >> >> treated A. zebrina as >> >> >> a variable species and included under >> that name A. >> >> >> wenzelii. He made no >> >> >> mention of the name A. tigrina (or A. >> zebrina >> >> tigrina) as >> >> >> this name and any >> >> >> combination thereof has never been >> formally >> >> published and >> >> >> thus from a strict >> >> >> botanical standpoint dos not exist. >> Goerverts et >> >> al. >> >> >> include a further name >> >> >> as a provisional syn. (A. liervalii) but >> without >> >> further >> >> >> discussion. >> >> >> >> >> >> Not withstanding the strict application >> of >> >> application of >> >> >> published names, >> >> >> it is clear to anyone who grows A. >> zebrina that >> >> there are >> >> >> several >> >> >> conspicuously different (but likewise >> clearly >> >> allied) >> >> >> entities in >> >> >> cultivation, among which the form with >> reticulated >> >> venation >> >> >> is particularly >> >> >> striking. What of course is needed is a >> >> comprehensive field >> >> >> study to try to >> >> >> untangle these cultivated clones and see >> where >> >> they may >> >> >> have originated. For >> >> >> that reason I have ccd this aroid-l >> posting to >> >> Melanie >> >> >> Medecilo in the >> >> >> Philippines; Melanie is currently working >> on >> >> >> Philippines' Alocasia and if >> >> >> anyone is able to shed some light on the >> status of >> >> the >> >> >> various clones of A. >> >> >> zebrina she can. >> >> >> >> >> >> Very best >> >> >> >> >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Denis" < >> denis at skg.com> >> >> >> To: "'Discussion of >> aroids'" >> >> >> < >> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:23 AM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina >> reticulata >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Alocasia zebrina >> 'reticulata' was >> >> subsequently >> >> >> tissue cultured by >> >> >> > Oglesby Plant Labs in the 1980's >> to >> >> satisfy the >> >> >> small collector's market >> >> >> > for this unusual plant. Only about >> 1,000 to >> >> 1,500 >> >> >> plants were produced >> >> >> > at that time. You might could ask >> Plantsman >> >> Jim >> >> >> Georgusis who currently >> >> >> > is working at Oglesby Plants if he >> knows >> >> anymore about >> >> >> the origins of >> >> >> > this cultivar. I think he worked at >> Fantastic >> >> Gardens >> >> >> in the 1970's. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The plant is currently being >> produced in >> >> Tissue >> >> >> Culture at Agristarts, >> >> >> > Inc. in Apopka Florida. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The question is still open as to >> whether or >> >> not >> >> >> Alocasia zebrina is true >> >> >> > species described in the literature >> somewhere >> >> or just >> >> >> a sub variety of >> >> >> > Alocasia tigrina group. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Denis >> >> >> > Silver Krome Gardens, Inc. >> >> >> > Homestead Florida >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: >> >> aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com >> >> >> > >> [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On >> >> Behalf Of >> >> >> Harry Luther >> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:05 >> PM >> >> >> > To: Discussion of aroids >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia >> zebrina >> >> reticulata >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I believe that I first saw an >> Alocasia >> >> >> "reticulata" at Fantastic >> Gardens >> >> >> > in Miami in the summer of 1976 in >> their >> >> private, keep >> >> >> out stock house. >> >> >> > This was when the Mentelos family >> had the >> >> nursery. My >> >> >> memory may be off >> >> >> > a bit as its filled with bromeliad >> stuff. >> >> HEL >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: >> >> aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com >> >> >> > >> [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com]On >> >> Behalf Of >> >> >> brian lee >> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 2:27 >> PM >> >> >> > To: Discussion of aroids >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia >> zebrina >> >> reticulata >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Dear Enid, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Aloha. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > About 1986, Roberto Burle-Marx, >> Betty Ho, >> >> Robert >> >> >> Hirano, and I went to >> >> >> > the Philippines. Corazon Aquino >> just became >> >> >> President, and it was a >> >> >> > wild time. Our host, Ronnie Lane >> was >> >> murdered a week >> >> >> before our trip >> >> >> > and our new host was Dr. Vic Santos. >> There is >> >> an >> >> >> Alocasia 'Vic Santos' >> >> >> > that we brought in for the first >> time. Vic >> >> made sure >> >> >> that we got all >> >> >> > sorts of Philippine plants, >> including many >> >> Alocasia >> >> >> species...including >> >> >> > Alocasia zebrina and several forms. >> Soon >> >> after our >> >> >> trip, Vic was >> >> >> > murdered at his farm. I do not know >> much >> >> about >> >> >> Alocasia, but Bob Hirano >> >> >> > does. Bob's collections are >> maintained >> >> at Lyon >> >> >> Arboretum and they will >> >> >> > have records of all that was >> collected. Bob >> >> has >> >> >> retired and his eyes >> >> >> > were messed up in a botched >> operation. If >> >> this forum >> >> >> does not come up >> >> >> > with an answer for you, I can >> contact Ray >> >> Baker at the >> >> >> Arboretum and he >> >> >> > may have some information on their >> BG-base >> >> data >> >> >> system. Another source >> >> >> > of information may be at the Bernice >> Pauahi >> >> Bishop >> >> >> Museum. They were >> >> >> > involved in the Philippine Flora >> Project and >> >> I can >> >> >> contact Clyde Imada >> >> >> > to see if they have any records in >> >> conjunction with >> >> >> this program. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I look forward to seeing what this >> thread >> >> reveals. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Aloha, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Leland >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Enid >> >> < >> enigo at bellsouth.net> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> From: Enid < >> enigo at bellsouth.net> >> >> >> >> Subject: [Aroid-l] Alocasia >> zebrina >> >> reticulata >> >> >> >> To: >> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com >> >> >> >> Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, >> 4:55 PM >> >> >> >> OK, does anyone out there know >> where >> >> Alocasia >> >> >> zebrina reticulata >> >> >> >> originally came from? Is it a >> proper >> >> species or a >> >> >> mutant? >> >> >> >> Enid >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Natural Selections Exotics >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> www.NSExotics.com_______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> Aroid-L mailing list >> >> >> >> >> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Aroid-L mailing list >> >> >> >> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> >> >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> >> > >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> > >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Aroid-L mailing list >> >> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> > >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> > >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >_______________________________________________ >> Aroid-L mailing list >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aroid-L mailing list > Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >

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