Anth. tilarenense

From: Neil Carroll <zzamia at hargray.com> on 1999.03.01 at 02:24:42(3082) Aroiders, I have mulled over this for quite sometime now. I have a problem with the sectional placement of Anthurium tilarenense. As some know, A. tilarenense is now placed in sec. Samaeophyllium based on its tri-lobed, entire leaves. I grow several plants in sec. Samaeophllyium among them are A. falcatum, A. impolitum,A. madisonianum, A. garagaranum, A. trilobum, and A. grex-avium. The ONLY characteristic I can find that places this plant in sec. samaophyllium is the tri-lobed leaf. Everything else about this plant tells me it belongs in Sec. Calomystrium and the only characteristic that would exclude it this section. What brought my attention to this was the intact, persistant catyphylls.On none of the above mentioned species in my collection nor in any of the literature that I have are persistant catyphylls found or mentioned. I also grow about 25 or more species of sec. Calomystrium so I have living material on hand to make comparisons. Some characters that I observe in A. tilaranense that I think should place it in sec. Calomystrium: Leaves. The general texture of the lamina is closer to the texture of my calys than my samaeos Short raphide cells are visable on the upper surface of the blade ( I think! I might need a lesson on this) Inflor. The spath and spadix seem to be closer to calys than to samaeos in color (white to pale green)and shape and texture I have made a cross polination between A. tilarenense and A. veitchii. berries are forming now but will not know if they hybridized or not, any way the pollination has initiated something. A. veitchii s infloresence will just die if not pollinated. I remember having a problem with the placement of A. amnicola and A. antioquense in sec. Porphyrochitonium because of their persistent intact catyphylls and now I see they have been moved to sec. calomystrium. Are persistant intact catyphylls found on any other species in any other section than Calomystrium? Are persistant catyphylls a conservative character? I am admittadly an armchair guy on this and I would like to have more literature and maybe a microscope to look at some of these characters more closely (ie raphide cells, flower structure) I noticed that chromosome counts for these two sec. overlap having being common to both sections. I know D. Mansell is working on this with Tom C. wonder what kind of problems this species might be creating for the section. I also know my theory would mess up the keys. Any thoughts?? +More Neil Carroll

From: MOTO_DO at t-online.de (Thomas Mottl) on 1999.03.01 at 15:14:51(3083) Neil, A. eximium, A. luteynii, A. upalense and A. willifordii have cataphylls which dry persistant ( All sec. Pachneurium). Thomas +More Aroiders, I have mulled over this for quite sometime now. I have a problem with the sectional placement of Anthurium tilarenense. As some know, A. tilarenense is now placed in sec. Samaeophyllium based on its tri-lobed, entire leaves. I grow several plants in sec. Samaeophllyium among them are A. falcatum, A. impolitum,A. madisonianum, A. garagaranum, A. trilobum, and A. grex-avium. The ONLY characteristic I can find that places this plant in sec. samaophyllium is the tri-lobed leaf. Everything else about this plant tells me it belongs in Sec. Calomystrium and the only characteristic that would exclude it this section. What brought my attention to this was the intact, persistant catyphylls.On none of the above mentioned species in my collection nor in any of theliterature that I have are persistant catyphylls found or mentioned. I also grow about 25 or more species of sec. Calomystrium so I have living material on hand to make comparisons. Some characters that I observe in A. tilaranense that I think should place it in sec. Calomystrium: Leaves. The general texture of the lamina is closer to the texture of my calys than my samaeos Short raphide cells are visable on the upper surface of the blade ( I think! I might need a lesson on this) Inflor. The spath and spadix seem to be closer to calys than to samaeos in color (white to pale green)and shape and texture I have made a cross polination between A. tilarenense and A. veitchii. berries are forming now but will not know if they hybridized or not, any way the pollination has initiated something. A. veitchii s infloresence will just die if not pollinated. I remember having a problem with the placement of A. amnicola and A. antioquense in sec. Porphyrochitonium because of their persistent intact catyphylls and now I see they have been moved to sec. calomystrium. Are persistant intact catyphylls found on any other species in any othersection than Calomystrium? Are persistant catyphylls a conservative character? I am admittadly an armchair guy on this and I would like to have more literature and maybe a microscope to look at some of these characters more closely (ie raphide cells, flower structure) I noticed that chromosome counts for these two sec. overlap having being common to both sections. >I know D. Mansell is working on this with Tom C. wonder what kind of >problems this species might be creating for the section. > >I also know my theory would mess up the keys. > >Any thoughts?? > >Neil Carroll > > > >

From: Neil Carroll <zzamia at hargray.com> on 1999.03.02 at 02:29:03(3086) At 09:16 AM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >Neil, >A. eximium, A. luteynii, A. upalense and A. willifordii have cataphylls >which dry persistant ( All sec. Pachneurium). > >Thomas +More Thomas, Thank you for the reply. But I must point out what the discriptions of these plants say about their " persistant catyphylls". In Croat & Sheffer's "The Sectional Groupings of Anthurium" under the description of section Calomystrium it is stated in regards to catyphylls..." Probably the most easily observed characteristic of the section is the presence of persistent cataphylls which usually dry reddish-brown to brown and REMAIN INTACT.In other sections cataphylls are usually either deciduous or weather into fibers". You are right that the above mentioned species having cataphylls which DRY intact, but they soon become deciduous or weather into fibers. I checked The Revision of Anthurium Section Pachyneurium by Croat and for all the species you mentioned the catyphylls dry intact but do not remain that way for long. ( If you do not have this revision it is online at the IAS site.) Besides there is no way to confuse a Pachyneurium with any other section due to the involute vernation of the leaf. Neil

From: David Scherberich <earmag at cybercable.tm.fr> on 1999.03.02 at 02:34:19(3087) Neil, it would be also interesting to know the shape and color of berries concerning Anth. tilaranense as well as number of seeds/berry and compare with other members of either Semaeophyllium or Calomystrium ... David +More Neil Carroll wrote: > > Aroiders, I have mulled over this for quite sometime now. I have a problem > with the sectional placement of Anthurium tilarenense. As some know, A. > tilarenense is now placed in sec. Samaeophyllium based on its tri-lobed, > entire leaves. I grow several plants in sec. Samaeophllyium among them are > A. falcatum, A. impolitum,A. madisonianum, A. garagaranum, A. trilobum, and > A. grex-avium. The ONLY characteristic I can find that places this plant in > sec. samaophyllium is the tri-lobed leaf. Everything else about this plant > tells me it belongs in Sec. Calomystrium and the only characteristic that > would exclude it this section. > > What brought my attention to this was the intact, persistant catyphylls.On > none of the above mentioned species in my collection nor in any of the > literature that I have are persistant catyphylls found or mentioned. I also > grow about 25 or more species of sec. Calomystrium so I have living > material on hand to make comparisons. > > Some characters that I observe in A. tilaranense that I think should place > it in sec. Calomystrium: > > Leaves. The general texture of the lamina is closer to the texture of my > calys than my samaeos > Short raphide cells are visable on the upper surface of the blade > ( I think! I might need a lesson on this) > > Inflor. The spath and spadix seem to be closer to calys than to samaeos in > color (white to pale green)and shape and texture > I have made a cross polination between A. tilarenense and A. > veitchii. berries are forming now but will not know if they hybridized or > not, any way the pollination has initiated something. A. veitchii > s infloresence will just die if not pollinated. > > I remember having a problem with the placement of A. amnicola and A. > antioquense in sec. Porphyrochitonium because of their persistent intact > catyphylls and now I see they have been moved to sec. calomystrium. Are > persistant intact catyphylls found on any other species in any other > section than Calomystrium? Are persistant catyphylls a conservative character? > > I am admittadly an armchair guy on this and I would like to have more > literature and maybe a microscope to look at some of these characters more > closely (ie raphide cells, flower structure) > > I noticed that chromosome counts for these two sec. overlap having > being common to both sections. > > I know D. Mansell is working on this with Tom C. wonder what kind of > problems this species might be creating for the section. > > I also know my theory would mess up the keys. > > Any thoughts?? > > Neil Carroll > > -- David Scherberich 3, rue de la Broque 67000 Strasbourg France Email: earmag@cybercable.tm.fr

From: Neil Carroll <zzamia at hargray.com> on 1999.03.02 at 19:51:21(3089) At 08:34 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >Neil, > >it would be also interesting to know the shape and color of berries >concerning Anth. tilaranense as well as number of seeds/berry and >compare with other members of either Semaeophyllium or Calomystrium ... > >David +More David, I looked it up. In the info I have (Central America & Mexico) Samaeos have red and purple berries with 2 seeds (4 species), and the Calys have Red, purple,white, green, brown and yellow berries with 2 seeds per berry (16 species). There is some mention of berry shape, but these shapes seem to vary. Berry color and shape number of seeds may be helpful in some sections of anthurium (many porphys have a flattened,depressed apex on the berry) buy you can see berry color and number of seeds is not very helpful in seperating Semaeos and Calys. Neil

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