Warning!!!!!

From: plantnut plantnut at macconnect.com> on 2001.07.26 at 02:01:46(7132) Early this morning I received a message from Dennis Cathcart informing me of a situation regarding Pepe Portillo of Ecuador. Pepe is a friend of mine and a darned nice fellow... Would do anything to help a friend and help another 'plant person' get the plant of his hearts desire..... This got him in trouble... I do not know what can be done to help him... Dennis is checking into this.. and I will keep you informed... I have information from another friend that his arranignment will not be until August 3rd.. +More Now, watch for the name Dave Martin in the text below... I never heard of this guy but I think that EVERYONE involved in plants should do everything in their power to make this person 'personna non gratta' EVERYWHERE. He is definitely not the type of person that I would want to know... Again, I do not know what we can do to stop these idiots from wasting our tax dollars on one or two plants but I sure hope someone can come up with an idea... Possibly, write your congressman.... yea, right... that won't be worth the paper it is written on..... The following account was authored by George Norris..... "AS OF NOW, THE STORIES GOING AROUND HAVE HIS WIFE IN JAIL AND HIM FACING DEPORTMENT AND THESE ARE NOT TRUE. SO HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED...... BACK IN JANUARY PEPE PORTILLO OF ECUAGENERA IN ECUADOR BROUGHT 10 CYCADS TO A CUSTOMER IN CALIFORNIA.. LATER SOMEHOW, 4 OF THE PLANTS WERE DETERMINED TO BE PLANTS NATIVE TO COLOMBIA AND HAD BEEN PUT ON THE CITES UNDER NAMES OF PLANTS FROM ECUADOR. AT THAT TIME A FELLOW NAMED DAVE MARTIN HAD ASKED PEPE ABOUT THE COLOMBIAN CYCADS AND PEPE TOLD HIM THAT HE COULD TRADE PLANTS WITH COLOMBIAN DEALERS BUT COULD ONLY GET THEM FOR EXPORT BY CHANGING THE NAMES FOR A ECUADOR CITES. MARTIN WAS WEARING A RECORDING DEVICE AND THE TAPES TURNED OVER TO THE US PLANT AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITIES. MARTIN ALSO WEARING A WIRE GOT TAPES OF 2 OTHER CYCAD DEALERS ADMITTING TO GETTING CYCADS INTO THE US FROM SO. AFRICA AND FROM AUSTRALIA. AN AMERICAN DEALER WAS ALSO CAUGHT IN THIS MESS BY BUYING SOME OF THESE PLANTS. THE PLANT POLICE , AS THEY ARE NOW CALLED, WAITED AND SET UP A TRAP FOR PEPE AND SOME OF THE OTHERS AT THE SANTA BARBARA SHOW WHERE PEPE WAS ARRESTED AND WARRANTS EXECUTED FOR THE OTHER 3. THIS LEFT PEPE'S WIFE INGRID WITH $15,000 WORTH OF LEGALLY IMPORTED PLANTS TO SET UP FOR THE SHOW AND TO SELL OVER THE SHOW WEEKEND AND SHE DOES NOT EVEN SPEAK ENGLISH. GRANTED, WHAT PEPE AND THE OTHERS DID WAS WRONG BUT THROWING THEM IN FEDERAL PRISON WAS CERTAINLY OVER RE-ACTING. SO EVEN IF THIS TURNS OUT TO INVOLVE AS MANY AS 10-15 CYCADS, SO WHAT. THIS IS NOT A MAJOR COCAINE BUST. THIS IS NOTHING WHERE 10 CYCADS LOOSE ON THE STREETS OF CALIFORNIA ARE GOING TO CORRUPT THE LIVES OF OUR KIDS. SO THIS IS WRONG BUT IT IS OF NOT MAJOR IMPORTANCE AND THEY COULD BE FINED AND THAT WOULD BE IT. THE GOVERNMENTS CASE REVOLVES AROUND THE ILLEGAL RECORDINGS BY A GOVERNMENT SNITCH, HIMSELF AN INDICTED CRIMINAL. THE GOVERNMENT AS THE VERY BEST HAS A WEAK CASE AND POSSIBLY WILL NOT EVEN BRING IT TO TRIAL. IT IS JUST A CASE OF BULLYING BY THE PLANT POLICE`. IN ADDITION THE DAVE MARTIN HAS BE WEARING THIS WIRE TO SHOWS OF ORCHIDS, AROIDS AND BANZAIS, TRYING TO GET SOME INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE FOR THE PLANT POLICE. THIS IS NO MORE THAN A PLANT POLICE "STING". THEY HAVE HAD THIS GUY MARTIN CALLING DEALERS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY TRYING TO BUY OR SELL ILLEGAL PLANTS AND ENTRAP OTHERS . IS THIS THE KIND OF THING WE WANT OUR TAX DOLLARS TO GO TO WHEN DRUGS ARE COMING IN BY THE TONS. I , FOR ONE, THINK NOT. THESE 4 CYCADS ARE NOT HURTING ANYTHING AND ALL THIS MONEY SPENT TO CATCH A FEW FOLKS IS PLAIN WASTEFUL OF SOME VERY LIMITED FUNDS." Again, I certainly think that this guy 'Martin' should be ostracised by every 'plant person' in the world.... What do you think? Dewey P.S. Please feel free to forward this message to any list that you are subscribed to and to anyone not on a list that you feel would like to know. Also, I have the press release that was put out... If anyone would like to see that.... be glad to post it also... D. Your source for Tropical Araceae http://members.macconnect.com/users/p/plantnut/

From: Susan Cooper coops at execpc.com> on 2001.07.26 at 05:34:03(7134) At 09:01 PM 7/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Early this morning I received a message from Dennis Cathcart informing me >of a situation regarding Pepe Portillo of Ecuador. Pepe is a friend of >mine and a darned nice fellow... Would do anything to help a friend and >help another 'plant person' get the plant of his hearts desire..... This >got him in trouble... (snippy) +More >Again, I certainly think that this guy 'Martin' should be ostracised by >every 'plant person' in the world.... > >What do you think? >Dewey > keel him. Is the Dave Martin in S. Florida? Because I remember someone by that name in WPB but I suppose there are many....

From: "newton" newton at coiinc.com> on 2001.07.26 at 05:35:05(7135) If some of this story is true, what Pepe Portillo did was wrong, illegal and he knew it. I have very little sympathy for Pepe. Laws, whether as individuals we feel are just or unjust, modify our behavior, which is judged to be in the local or international societies best interest at the time. If, in fact, we feel the law is unjust or plainly wrong, there exists ways to go about changing them with some effort. Sometimes we win, sometimes not. When we don't win, perhaps we are not of the majority opinion or hold a professional understanding of the nature of the problem that brought about the law. +More Locally, we have several protected grasses, two of which are known to be the only locations in several states. Do I want them protected? You bet. Do I want some "damned nice fellow" to dig them up and sell them? Hell no. I can only imagine the ignorance of a person who would do so without regard. In countries where plants are endangered, and misguided laws for their protection are inadvertently guaranteeing their ultimate destruction due to habitat changes, concerned people should use the international channels to influence a change. If failing to do this, then protest, be passionate, but don't steal and rob future local generations of the opportunity to enjoy the flora. I will disagree with anyone who sides with this type of activity. As for Dave, I am glad there are Dave Martins who help stop the trafficking of illegally gotten plants. He is OBVOIUSLY passionate about HIS cause and so are those who help in the process. For each of you reading this who have knowingly purchased or traded for an illegally gotten plant, what's up with that? You make me real proud. I hope every time you look at it (them) you think about the selfishness of your actions. And don't get me started on the comment "THESE 4 CYCADS ARE NOT HURTING ANYTHING". I see little if any objective argument of substance in anything written below to defend Pepe. He got caught. Others do not. There are many more than 4 cycads floating over our borders and disappearing from native soils to the greedy hands of private and public collections. I would appreciate some dialog on this topic to see if I am, in fact, of the minority opinion in which case we should all be allowed to plunder other countries national treasures whether plants or historical icons, works of art and so on. Why hell, let's just walk into the MOBOT and take whatever we want. What's the issue folks? Tim McNinch Happy with what I have and staying out of jail while enjoying it. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:02 PM To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Warning!!!!! Early this morning I received a message from Dennis Cathcart informing me of a situation regarding Pepe Portillo of Ecuador. Pepe is a friend of mine and a darned nice fellow... Would do anything to help a friend and help another 'plant person' get the plant of his hearts desire..... This got him in trouble... I do not know what can be done to help him... Dennis is checking into this.. and I will keep you informed... I have information from another friend that his arranignment will not be until August 3rd.. Now, watch for the name Dave Martin in the text below... I never heard of this guy but I think that EVERYONE involved in plants should do everything in their power to make this person 'personna non gratta' EVERYWHERE. He is definitely not the type of person that I would want to know... Again, I do not know what we can do to stop these idiots from wasting our tax dollars on one or two plants but I sure hope someone can come up with an idea... Possibly, write your congressman.... yea, right... that won't be worth the paper it is written on..... The following account was authored by George Norris..... "AS OF NOW, THE STORIES GOING AROUND HAVE HIS WIFE IN JAIL AND HIM FACING DEPORTMENT AND THESE ARE NOT TRUE. SO HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED...... BACK IN JANUARY PEPE PORTILLO OF ECUAGENERA IN ECUADOR BROUGHT 10 CYCADS TO A CUSTOMER IN CALIFORNIA.. LATER SOMEHOW, 4 OF THE PLANTS WERE DETERMINED TO BE PLANTS NATIVE TO COLOMBIA AND HAD BEEN PUT ON THE CITES UNDER NAMES OF PLANTS FROM ECUADOR. AT THAT TIME A FELLOW NAMED DAVE MARTIN HAD ASKED PEPE ABOUT THE COLOMBIAN CYCADS AND PEPE TOLD HIM THAT HE COULD TRADE PLANTS WITH COLOMBIAN DEALERS BUT COULD ONLY GET THEM FOR EXPORT BY CHANGING THE NAMES FOR A ECUADOR CITES. MARTIN WAS WEARING A RECORDING DEVICE AND THE TAPES TURNED OVER TO THE US PLANT AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITIES. MARTIN ALSO WEARING A WIRE GOT TAPES OF 2 OTHER CYCAD DEALERS ADMITTING TO GETTING CYCADS INTO THE US FROM SO. AFRICA AND FROM AUSTRALIA. AN AMERICAN DEALER WAS ALSO CAUGHT IN THIS MESS BY BUYING SOME OF THESE PLANTS. THE PLANT POLICE , AS THEY ARE NOW CALLED, WAITED AND SET UP A TRAP FOR PEPE AND SOME OF THE OTHERS AT THE SANTA BARBARA SHOW WHERE PEPE WAS ARRESTED AND WARRANTS EXECUTED FOR THE OTHER 3. THIS LEFT PEPE'S WIFE INGRID WITH $15,000 WORTH OF LEGALLY IMPORTED PLANTS TO SET UP FOR THE SHOW AND TO SELL OVER THE SHOW WEEKEND AND SHE DOES NOT EVEN SPEAK ENGLISH. GRANTED, WHAT PEPE AND THE OTHERS DID WAS WRONG BUT THROWING THEM IN FEDERAL PRISON WAS CERTAINLY OVER RE-ACTING. SO EVEN IF THIS TURNS OUT TO INVOLVE AS MANY AS 10-15 CYCADS, SO WHAT. THIS IS NOT A MAJOR COCAINE BUST. THIS IS NOTHING WHERE 10 CYCADS LOOSE ON THE STREETS OF CALIFORNIA ARE GOING TO CORRUPT THE LIVES OF OUR KIDS. SO THIS IS WRONG BUT IT IS OF NOT MAJOR IMPORTANCE AND THEY COULD BE FINED AND THAT WOULD BE IT. THE GOVERNMENTS CASE REVOLVES AROUND THE ILLEGAL RECORDINGS BY A GOVERNMENT SNITCH, HIMSELF AN INDICTED CRIMINAL. THE GOVERNMENT AS THE VERY BEST HAS A WEAK CASE AND POSSIBLY WILL NOT EVEN BRING IT TO TRIAL. IT IS JUST A CASE OF BULLYING BY THE PLANT POLICE`. IN ADDITION THE DAVE MARTIN HAS BE WEARING THIS WIRE TO SHOWS OF ORCHIDS, AROIDS AND BANZAIS, TRYING TO GET SOME INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE FOR THE PLANT POLICE. THIS IS NO MORE THAN A PLANT POLICE "STING". THEY HAVE HAD THIS GUY MARTIN CALLING DEALERS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY TRYING TO BUY OR SELL ILLEGAL PLANTS AND ENTRAP OTHERS . IS THIS THE KIND OF THING WE WANT OUR TAX DOLLARS TO GO TO WHEN DRUGS ARE COMING IN BY THE TONS. I , FOR ONE, THINK NOT. THESE 4 CYCADS ARE NOT HURTING ANYTHING AND ALL THIS MONEY SPENT TO CATCH A FEW FOLKS IS PLAIN WASTEFUL OF SOME VERY LIMITED FUNDS." Again, I certainly think that this guy 'Martin' should be ostracised by every 'plant person' in the world.... What do you think? Dewey P.S. Please feel free to forward this message to any list that you are subscribed to and to anyone not on a list that you feel would like to know. Also, I have the press release that was put out... If anyone would like to see that.... be glad to post it also... D. Your source for Tropical Araceae http://members.macconnect.com/users/p/plantnut/

From: Phil Bunch pbunch at cts.com> on 2001.07.27 at 06:16:52(7143) Hear, hear. The illegal trade in wildlife (both flora and fauna) is a very large problem. It must be controlled. If a person knowingly breaks the law and profits by their acts they should not complain when apprehended. If anyone feels that their country should not be a party to the CITES treaty that is ok and they should take political action to change their participation. Legally and morally I see little difference between smuggling plants and smuggling drugs. I would add that Mr. Portillo stands accused and not convicted if the information at hand is correct. He should be considered innocent until proven guilty. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service still has to prove their case. +More Phil Bunch On Wednesday, July 25, 2001 22:36, newton [SMTP:newton@coiinc.com] wrote: > If some of this story is true, what Pepe Portillo did was wrong, illegal and > he knew it. I have very little sympathy for Pepe. Laws, whether as > individuals we feel are just or unjust, modify our behavior, which is judged > to be in the local or international societies best interest at the time. If, > in fact, we feel the law is unjust or plainly wrong, there exists ways to go > about changing them with some effort. Sometimes we win, sometimes not. When > we don't win, perhaps we are not of the majority opinion or hold a > professional understanding of the nature of the problem that brought about > the law. > > Locally, we have several protected grasses, two of which are known to be the > only locations in several states. Do I want them protected? You bet. Do I > want some "damned nice fellow" to dig them up and sell them? Hell no. I can > only imagine the ignorance of a person who would do so without regard. > > In countries where plants are endangered, and misguided laws for their > protection are inadvertently guaranteeing their ultimate destruction due to > habitat changes, concerned people should use the international channels to > influence a change. If failing to do this, then protest, be passionate, but > don't steal and rob future local generations of the opportunity to enjoy the > flora. > > I will disagree with anyone who sides with this type of activity. As for > Dave, I am glad there are Dave Martins who help stop the trafficking of > illegally gotten plants. He is OBVOIUSLY passionate about HIS cause and so > are those who help in the process. > > For each of you reading this who have knowingly purchased or traded for an > illegally gotten plant, what's up with that? You make me real proud. I hope > every time you look at it (them) you think about the selfishness of your > actions. > > And don't get me started on the comment "THESE 4 CYCADS ARE NOT HURTING > ANYTHING". I see little if any objective argument of substance in anything > written below to defend Pepe. He got caught. Others do not. There are many > more than 4 cycads floating over our borders and disappearing from native > soils to the greedy hands of private and public collections. > > I would appreciate some dialog on this topic to see if I am, in fact, of the > minority opinion in which case we should all be allowed to plunder other > countries national treasures whether plants or historical icons, works of > art and so on. Why hell, let's just walk into the MOBOT and take whatever we > want. What's the issue folks? > > Tim McNinch > Happy with what I have and staying out of jail while enjoying it. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aroid-l@mobot.org [mailto:aroid-l@mobot.org]On Behalf Of plantnut > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:02 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L > Subject: Warning!!!!! > > Early this morning I received a message from Dennis Cathcart informing me > of a situation regarding Pepe Portillo of Ecuador. Pepe is a friend of > mine and a darned nice fellow... Would do anything to help a friend and > help another 'plant person' get the plant of his hearts desire..... This > got him in trouble... > > I do not know what can be done to help him... Dennis is checking into > this.. and I will keep you informed... > > I have information from another friend that his arranignment will not be > until August 3rd.. > > Now, watch for the name Dave Martin in the text below... I never heard of > this guy but I think that EVERYONE involved in plants should do everything > in their power to make this person 'personna non gratta' EVERYWHERE. He is > definitely not the type of person that I would want to know... > > Again, I do not know what we can do to stop these idiots from wasting our > tax dollars on one or two plants but I sure hope someone can come up with > an idea... Possibly, write your congressman.... yea, right... that won't > be worth the paper it is written on..... > > The following account was authored by George Norris..... > > "AS OF NOW, THE STORIES GOING AROUND HAVE HIS WIFE IN JAIL AND HIM FACING > DEPORTMENT AND THESE ARE NOT TRUE. > > SO HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED...... > > BACK IN JANUARY PEPE PORTILLO OF ECUAGENERA IN ECUADOR BROUGHT 10 CYCADS TO > A CUSTOMER IN CALIFORNIA.. LATER SOMEHOW, 4 OF THE PLANTS WERE DETERMINED TO > BE PLANTS NATIVE TO COLOMBIA AND HAD BEEN PUT ON THE CITES UNDER NAMES OF > PLANTS FROM ECUADOR. AT THAT TIME A FELLOW NAMED DAVE MARTIN HAD ASKED PEPE > ABOUT THE COLOMBIAN CYCADS AND PEPE TOLD HIM THAT HE COULD TRADE PLANTS WITH > COLOMBIAN DEALERS BUT COULD ONLY GET THEM FOR EXPORT BY CHANGING THE NAMES > FOR A ECUADOR CITES. MARTIN WAS WEARING A RECORDING DEVICE AND THE TAPES > TURNED OVER TO THE US PLANT AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITIES. MARTIN ALSO WEARING A > WIRE GOT TAPES OF 2 OTHER CYCAD DEALERS ADMITTING TO GETTING CYCADS INTO THE > US FROM SO. AFRICA AND FROM AUSTRALIA. AN AMERICAN DEALER WAS ALSO CAUGHT IN > THIS MESS BY BUYING SOME OF THESE PLANTS. > > THE PLANT POLICE , AS THEY ARE NOW CALLED, WAITED AND SET UP A TRAP FOR PEPE > AND SOME OF THE OTHERS AT THE SANTA BARBARA SHOW WHERE PEPE WAS ARRESTED AND > WARRANTS EXECUTED FOR THE OTHER 3. THIS LEFT PEPE'S WIFE INGRID WITH > $15,000 WORTH OF LEGALLY IMPORTED PLANTS TO SET UP FOR THE SHOW AND TO SELL > OVER THE SHOW WEEKEND AND SHE DOES NOT EVEN SPEAK ENGLISH. > > GRANTED, WHAT PEPE AND THE OTHERS DID WAS WRONG BUT THROWING THEM IN > FEDERAL PRISON WAS CERTAINLY OVER RE-ACTING. SO EVEN IF THIS TURNS OUT TO > INVOLVE AS MANY AS 10-15 CYCADS, SO WHAT. THIS IS NOT A MAJOR COCAINE BUST. > THIS IS NOTHING WHERE 10 CYCADS LOOSE ON THE STREETS OF CALIFORNIA ARE GOING > TO CORRUPT THE LIVES OF OUR KIDS. > > SO THIS IS WRONG BUT IT IS OF NOT MAJOR IMPORTANCE AND THEY COULD BE FINED > AND THAT WOULD BE IT. THE GOVERNMENTS CASE REVOLVES AROUND THE ILLEGAL > RECORDINGS BY A GOVERNMENT SNITCH, HIMSELF AN INDICTED CRIMINAL. THE > GOVERNMENT AS THE VERY BEST HAS A WEAK CASE AND POSSIBLY WILL NOT EVEN BRING > IT TO TRIAL. IT IS JUST A CASE OF BULLYING BY THE PLANT POLICE`. IN ADDITION > THE DAVE MARTIN HAS BE WEARING THIS WIRE TO SHOWS OF ORCHIDS, AROIDS AND > BANZAIS, TRYING TO GET SOME INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE FOR THE PLANT POLICE. > > THIS IS NO MORE THAN A PLANT POLICE "STING". THEY HAVE HAD THIS GUY MARTIN > CALLING DEALERS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY TRYING TO BUY OR SELL ILLEGAL PLANTS > AND ENTRAP OTHERS . > > IS THIS THE KIND OF THING WE WANT OUR TAX DOLLARS TO GO TO WHEN DRUGS ARE > COMING IN BY THE TONS. I , FOR ONE, THINK NOT. THESE 4 CYCADS ARE NOT > HURTING ANYTHING AND ALL THIS MONEY SPENT TO CATCH A FEW FOLKS IS PLAIN > WASTEFUL OF SOME VERY LIMITED FUNDS." > > Again, I certainly think that this guy 'Martin' should be ostracised by > every 'plant person' in the world.... > > What do you think? > Dewey > > P.S. Please feel free to forward this message to any list that you are > subscribed to and to anyone not on a list that you feel would like to know. > > Also, I have the press release that was put out... If anyone would like to > see that.... be glad to post it also... > D. > > Your source for Tropical Araceae > http://members.macconnect.com/users/p/plantnut/ >

From: Lewandjim at aol.com on 2001.07.27 at 06:17:03(7144) In a message dated 7/26/2001 1:35:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, newton@coiinc.com writes: << I would appreciate some dialog on this topic to see if I am, in fact, of +More the minority opinion in which case we should all be allowed to plunder other countries national treasures whether plants or historical icons, works of art and so on. Why hell, let's just walk into the MOBOT and take whatever we want. What's the issue folks? >> Tim McNinch, Bravo! I thoroughly agree with and approve of everything you said! Jim Langhammer

From: Regferns at aol.com on 2001.07.27 at 06:17:15(7145) In a message dated 07/26/2001 1:35:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, newton@coiinc.com writes: I would appreciate some dialog on this topic to see if I am, in fact, of the +More minority opinion in which case we should all be allowed to plunder other countries national treasures whether plants or historical icons, works of art and so on. My two cents--Too bad someone did not go to Afghanistan recently and plunder those national treasures and historical icons before the Afghanistan government foolishly and arbitrarily DESTROYED them because of religious intolerance. Not all laws are made with the best intentions. Future and local generations surely won't be able to enjoy these (now destroyed) monumental objects of antiquity. Reggie Whitehead South Miami, FL

From: Paul Tyerman ptyerman at ozemail.com.au> on 2001.07.27 at 06:22:37(7151) Howdy All, I have to respond to this email, and I hope others do as well. I can't believe that something like this has been allowed to happen. I have responded below to various parts of the email...... +More At 09:02 25/07/01 -0500, you wrote: >Early this morning I received a message from Dennis Cathcart informing me >of a situation regarding Pepe Portillo of Ecuador. Pepe is a friend of >mine and a darned nice fellow... Would do anything to help a friend and >help another 'plant person' get the plant of his hearts desire..... This >got him in trouble... SOAP BOX MODE : On There is a Rare Plant Nursery in Victoria in Australia who has repeatedly had his collection of Arisaemas and Trilliums stolen by someone who knows which are the rare plants and which to leave. Obviously the thief is helping a "friend" or him/herself to get the plant of their hearts desire. Now I'm sure to a lot of people this person is a friend and a darn nice fellow...... however talk to the nursery owner and the person is a rotten scoundrel.... and talk to the police and the person is just plain a criminal. Because someone is a friend doesn't make breaking the law RIGHT now does it? > >Now, watch for the name Dave Martin in the text below... I never heard of >this guy but I think that EVERYONE involved in plants should do everything >in their power to make this person 'personna non gratta' EVERYWHERE. He is >definitely not the type of person that I would want to know... > Obviously all police who are doing their job should also be ostracised (sp?) from teh community as well. They are doing their job to catch crooks!! Obviously they are not the type of person you'd "want to know" either. >Again, I do not know what we can do to stop these idiots from wasting our >tax dollars on one or two plants but I sure hope someone can come up with >an idea... Possibly, write your congressman.... yea, right... that won't >be worth the paper it is written on..... > This may be one or two plants..... but what about the other 500 people doing the same thing? That's 500 or 1000 plants. Some populations of plants number in the 10's not the 1000's. Australia has something called the Wollemi (sp?) Pine that was recently discoverd in the Blue Mountains near Sydney. It is a relic from the dinosaur age (gee.... so are Cycads) and I'm sure there are LOTS of people who would like their "heart's desires" fulfilled and to get one. The location has not been made public, and there has been extensive tissue culture and seed growth so that there are now thousands of these plants and they will be in nurseries ithin the next couple of years. Thankfully (for a change) Parks and Wildlife here in Australia had the forethought to head off theft by making the plant freely available so that CROOKS could not steal it and add it to their collection. Why bother stealing a plant that someone can buy in the nursery for $50 in a couple of years and $10 a few years after that? > >THE PLANT POLICE , AS THEY ARE NOW CALLED, WAITED AND SET UP A TRAP FOR PEPE >AND SOME OF THE OTHERS AT THE SANTA BARBARA SHOW WHERE PEPE WAS ARRESTED AND >WARRANTS EXECUTED FOR THE OTHER 3. THIS LEFT PEPE'S WIFE INGRID WITH >$15,000 WORTH OF LEGALLY IMPORTED PLANTS TO SET UP FOR THE SHOW AND TO SELL >OVER THE SHOW WEEKEND AND SHE DOES NOT EVEN SPEAK ENGLISH. Far as I can see..... someone who broke the laws of a country was arrested. Sounds to me like he DID what he was arrested for, in fact this email says just that, so what is the problem. Basic premise..... You do the crime, you do the time!! > >GRANTED, WHAT PEPE AND THE OTHERS DID WAS WRONG BUT THROWING THEM IN >FEDERAL PRISON WAS CERTAINLY OVER RE-ACTING. SO EVEN IF THIS TURNS OUT TO >INVOLVE AS MANY AS 10-15 CYCADS, SO WHAT. THIS IS NOT A MAJOR COCAINE BUST. >THIS IS NOTHING WHERE 10 CYCADS LOOSE ON THE STREETS OF CALIFORNIA ARE GOING >TO CORRUPT THE LIVES OF OUR KIDS. Yep it sounds like throwing them in prison was a bit extreme...... but given the stories you say are going around....... are you sure this isn't an exaggeration? ANYONE who is caught in a sting operation is thrown into jail first, then has everything sorted out. We're not talking about a parking fine here..... this contravenes exportation laws and ends up in diplomatic problems if something is not seen to be done. >AND THAT WOULD BE IT. THE GOVERNMENTS CASE REVOLVES AROUND THE ILLEGAL >RECORDINGS BY A GOVERNMENT SNITCH, HIMSELF AN INDICTED CRIMINAL. THE So you're saying that turning State's Evidence is wrong then? They're criminals as well, but thankfully (be it for greed or self preservation or just plain feeling guilty) they help the ringleaders get caught. Use a Thief to catch a Theif is another common saying!! >GOVERNMENT AS THE VERY BEST HAS A WEAK CASE AND POSSIBLY WILL NOT EVEN BRING >IT TO TRIAL. IT IS JUST A CASE OF BULLYING BY THE PLANT POLICE`. IN ADDITION >THE DAVE MARTIN HAS BE WEARING THIS WIRE TO SHOWS OF ORCHIDS, AROIDS AND >BANZAIS, TRYING TO GET SOME INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE FOR THE PLANT POLICE. IF YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG THEN THERE IS NOTHING TO BE WORRIED ABOUT!! Wy victimise Dave Martin for doing what he is paid for, when ..... if you're a law abiding citizen ...... then you have nothing to fear. >What do you think? >Dewey I am surprised that people who feel that nature is worth conserving would be standing up for the illegal import/export of plants. He DELIBERATELY changed the name for export because he KNEW that it was illegal to export it. This isn't a case of mistaken identity..... this is calculated theft!! Obviously there are people out there who like to buy "hot plants" that they know were illegally imported. They are the ones who should be shot for being that greedy to add to their collection. I agree with conservation but not theft. I am sorry to respond to forcefully to this, but I simply cannot understand how anyone can stand up for the illegal importation/exportation into/out of a country. I suppose for most people it is fine if it is womone elses country, as long as it isn't their own. SOAP BOX MODE : Off I hope there are other who feel as I do. If not then there is no hope for plants in the wild as they will be raped and pillaged to everyone's "Heart's Content" and the only place that plants will naturally be left is in collections throughout the world. Sad but true. Sorry to rant... I just can't believe that this was posted by way of complaint against a crook being caught!! Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!!

From: Neil Carroll zzamia at hargray.com> on 2001.07.27 at 21:01:39(7158) Steve is VERY correct when he states that this topic can become a war zone. I am also a member of the Cycad list and this topic easily takes up 25% or more of our archives (much of it mine!!). Please be civil in this discussion. It is without a doubt one of the most volitale topics because so LITTLE is understood about it on all sides. Please consider some of the following before you hit the send button. I will spare you all my tirades on the subject but if you really want to hear them just click here for an article I wrote during the CITES wars on the cycad list. +More http://www.plantapalm.com/vce/conservation/cites.htm I think there are several points made in this article that everyone should consider as they judge CITES. As Aroiders we have no CITES to deal with. People can be against CITES and still be conservation minded. Your oppinion would probably change (one way or the other) if you have been to a rain forest. CITES is a political body, not a scientific body. Breaking the law is breaking the law. If you do it you must be willing to take the conscequences. Some people who have broken the law and have accepted the consequences have names such as Jesus, John Brown, Patrick Henry, Joan of Arc. etc. My opinions are lengthy on this topic and grew very weary of it on the Cycad list. I encourage everyone to talk it out here because there is a great deal to learn. And it is very important. The real question that should come of this is "What to do about the loss of biodiversity?". One big problem I have is that conservation seems to always starts by blaming the collector as if they have any impact whatsoever. Consider that collectors and growers are the only people who really care about any of these plants we love to grow. They are the ones that are to be applauded for getting this stuff into cultivation, propagating it, distributing it. Habitat loss is the enemy. It is the result of the human population on the earth. It has nothing to do with plant collectors. Remember, we are passionate about the plants we collect....aroids, orchids, cycads or whatever. Really the population of the planet could care less about these plants. In third world tropical countries its food and shelter that people want. Neil

From: StellrJ at aol.com on 2001.07.28 at 00:40:55(7166) In a message dated Thu, 26 Jul 2001 1:35:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "newton" writes: > Laws, whether as > individuals we feel are just or unjust, modify our behavior, which is judged > to be in the local or international societies best interest at the time. What I believe you are trying to say is, just because we disagree with a law, does not mean we should disregard it. This is true. After all, every criminal disagrees with the laws he breaks -- otherwise, he would not break them. And, with each of our individual talents and weaknesses, there is one thing in which we are all experts: we all excel at self-justification. > Locally, we have several protected grasses, two of which are known to be the > only locations in several states. Do I want them protected? You bet. Do I > want some "damned nice fellow" to dig them up and sell them? Hell no. I can > only imagine the ignorance of a person who would do so without regard. > This relates back to a comment I made about a month ago (or more), about my choice simply not to reveal the locations of sensitive species I find. The fewer people know they are there, the less likelihood someone will come after them. As I understand it, some of our State Departments of Natural Resources (or equivalent) withhold locations of the species they monitor, for exactly this reason. > In countries where plants are endangered, and misguided laws for their > protection are inadvertently guaranteeing their ultimate destruction due to > habitat changes, concerned people should use the international channels to > influence a change. Is there a place for "cloak-and-dagger conservation"? For example, a few years ago, in an area I know, some local boys (I never met them) accidentally started a wildfire in some brush. Some weeks later, I visited the spot, finding blackened remains of an invasive shrub, and bare, blackened soil. I knew the area had, prior to settlement, been a native prairie; and I had discovered a few seeds of native prairie species in my bag, which must have fallen there while I was gathering for the State DNR some weeks before. So, I sprinkled them about on the burned site, hoping they would grow -- and thus reestablish an extirpated population. Since the land was a right-of-way for electrical transmission wires, I figured the power company would not harbor any malevolence toward them. Was I doing wrong? > > And don't get me started on the comment "THESE 4 CYCADS ARE NOT HURTING > ANYTHING".... There are many > more than 4 cycads floating over our borders and disappearing from native > soils to the greedy hands of private and public collections. > Exactly. This is one of the most common self-justifications. Someone bulldozes a tract of woods to build a house, and says, "It's just one small lot." But then the guy on the next lot over does the same, and the next and the next -- each individual clearing "just one small lot" until it all adds up to a large acreage. The fact is, there are so many humans in the world today, that even if everyone does just a tiny bit of damage, we will still destroy the environment. Jason Hernandez +More Naturalist-at-Large

From: "mjhatfield" mjhatfield at oneota.org> on 2001.07.28 at 20:52:24(7182) I am very interested in the current subject. In Iowa, USA, we have a T&E species List. I have growing at my farm a T&E species. It is a prairie plant. By law I cannot have any part of this plant in my possession. I'm in the process of reconstructing a prairie. It is against the law for me to gather seeds of this plant, (growing on my property), propagate it and then plant these plants into my reconstruction. Lucky for me, Iowa has zero enforcement. Not that I would ever break a law, and certainly I always drive the speed limit. +More But I have to ask. With all this concern about the destruction of the worlds rainforests, are we thinking/acting on concerns for habitat destruction/ecological demise or are we thinking/acting as plant collectors, wishing not to see our favorite plants disappear? I was on the Endangered Species List for a while but it seemed that their concern was for growing rare species, in the name of conservation. When I asked what their local county/state endangered species were, for the most part, they didn't even realize there were any. It was then that I decided the list was more about growing something rare, something that they yearned for, that they collected, than about biodiversity and ecology. I un-subscribed. I realize that rainforests are incredibly biologically diverse. I know they need saving. But is that which is being done to the rainforests any different than what has been done in our own back yards, in the past and continuing today? If our concerns for habitat destruction are legitimate, what are we doing to save and restore habitat in our own backyards? And, are we helping those organizations that are truly working to save tracts of rainforest? I live in Iowa, in the middle of the USA. This is the most biologically altered state in the entire US. We WERE the tall grass prairie state having had more of this habitat than any other state. 99.9% of our prairie is gone. The soils of this lost habitat make fantastic farmland (1/2 of which has eroded in the last 120 years), growing corn to feed the beef that makes the steaks and hamburgers that we eat (my apologies to those of you who are vegetarian or vegan). In the process of changing the landscape, we have also logged every forest in the state and destroyed 94% of our wetlands and as a result, in part, we had the disastrous 1993 floods of the Mississippi River and the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico that continues to grow every year. There has been a State push to build a fake rainforest, as a teaching tool (and as a tourist trap). For the price of this "attraction" all the remaining native prairie in the state could be bought and protected with monies left that could actually buy and protect some real rainforest. But that wouldn't involve enough bells and whistles. When I was lucky enough to visit Panama with 2 IAS members, I was the Pollyanna on the trip. They tried to educate me. I lamented the destruction I observed of lowland rainforest knowing that this land would be used to grow coffee and bananas, both of which I consume. I also wondered what right did I have to think that this should not happen. It is the same thing that happened in Iowa 130 years ago, and continues today. (We recently had a 1-acre virgin prairie come up for sale. The county fathers refused to sell to the highest bidder, a conservation organization, but rather sold it to the adjacent farmer. He plowed it up, planted monoculture corn, which sells for less than the cost to plant it, and is then subsidized by the taxpayer, polluting the water in the process.) If a country with our standard of living, our competitive over consumption, can't protect out last remaining native lands, how can we expect countries struggling to feed their people to save theirs? There's so much I don't understand. MJ Hatfield

From: StellrJ at aol.com on 2001.07.29 at 19:57:43(7186) In a message dated Fri, 27 Jul 2001 2:23:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Paul Tyerman writes: ANYONE who is caught in a sting operation is thrown into > jail first, then has everything sorted out. Okay. Let's suppose you, a law-abiding citizen, happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and get caught in a sting. You wind up in jail. Then what? Maybe you stay there awhile until they set bail, then you have to pay exhorbitant amounts of money to get out, even though you did nothing wrong. Or, perhaps there is no bail, and you must wait in jail until the case goes to trial. By the time you are acquitted, you have lost a number of days from your life, and perhaps money you could ill-afford. Do you get any of it back? If not, then no justice was done. I say, if they ever jail me for something I did not do, then they must return to me the days I spent in jail! Otherwise they are thieves -- they have stolen a portion of my life! Jason Hernandez +More Anarchist-at-Large

From: Lewandjim at aol.com on 2001.07.29 at 23:59:48(7188) In a message dated 7/29/2001 3:58:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, StellrJ@aol.com writes: << ANYONE who is caught in a sting operation is thrown into +More > jail first, then has everything sorted out. >> I usually am considered an "old codger" - has something to do with senility probably. Nonetheless, am I the only one who thinks this subject has run its course? The vast majority of the e-mails it is generating are based on missassumptions and totally erroneous facts. Jim Langhammer

From: plantnut plantnut at macconnect.com> on 2001.07.30 at 00:00:40(7189) It has been very interesting to read the various view points on this subject. I can appreciate all of them... A few years ago, I was walking around with my head in the clouds thinking that all was right with the world and that the Conservationists were doing a very good job. That everyone that was caught doing something that they should not have been doing deserved what they got no matter how it was found out and no matter how severe the punishment was. Then, would you believe I became a "Plant Policeman"? Not for the Feds. but for the State of Florida... and then.... I found out what reality was like. The whold thing is run on the regular burecratic system... points for sucking up to the boss and making him/her look good. That is the system. Logic and justice has nothing to do with anything. Just punishment for an offense... no such thing... In this vein, I appreciate the comments of Jason. He is right on... The wrong place at the wrong time... I have seen it often... And as far as giving back the time... Sure, "I'm sorry" does not cut it... I left the "Plant Police" in just three years... couldn't take it anymore... Mr. McNinch... I'm very glad you have seen reality. I feel that by starting this line of thought, I have at least brought one person to reality and that is a good thing. Many thanks for your last posting. I appreciate it. +More So, let's bottom line this thread... We all agree that something should be done to conserve the plants we love... But, how? That is a good question and as long as there are two or more different folks talking, you will have two or more different opinions. Thankfully, with Steve's cautions, we have all been nice folks about it... It can be a very volitile subject. Yes, something has to be done to preserve the plants we all love... but, I do not think the present CITIES rules and regulations are doing it... especially the way they are being enforced. Update on Pepe... He was offered a deal.... Go home and never do business in the U.S.A. again in any way.... and we will forget about the whole thing... or... stand trial. He now has a very expensive lawyer and his bail hearing was last week... Would you believe that the bail was set at SEVENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS???? Also, would you believe that the value of the four small Cycads that he brought into the country was only SIXTY DOLLARS? Seems a bit out of line. The lawyer is going to cost him TWENTY THOUSAND... It is said that the Gov. has a very weak case based on evidence illegally obtained.... but, who is going to give him back the time he has lost? Who is going to repair the emotions of his wife? Does all of this, plus the time he has spent in a Federal Prison seem worth four plants that are worth only sixty dollars? Does the punishment meet the crime. Well, so much for raality... Yes, once I walked around with my head in the clouds thinking that all was perfect and that a person deserved what he got... Now? Not on your life!!!! What is the expression.... "Been there, done that"! But, fortunaely, I never got caught! Dewey Your source for Tropical Araceae http://members.macconnect.com/users/p/plantnut/

From: "George R Stilwell, Jr." grsjr at juno.com> on 2001.07.30 at 03:02:32(7191) Jim, Right On! Enough "opinions" is more than enough! Ray +More GRSJr@Juno.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

From: Susan Cooper coops at execpc.com> on 2001.07.30 at 03:02:42(7192) Otherwise they are thieves -- they have stolen a portion of my life! >Jason Hernandez Just what I said when I saw the movie Planet of the Apes. Someone owes me two hours! Susan +More Crab-at-large

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