Observations on growing plants in bogs

From: "Kathy Kempf" wont_read101 at hotmail.com> on 2002.06.06 at 15:52:31(8963) Ron, The past 2 springs I have had sad experience with many different plant reactions to growing in bogs. I have learned this: if the crown is submerged along with the top inch of root system for more than a short time (a day or more) the plant will die. This happens regardless of whether it has water roots or not. Certain species tolerate saturated soil with water above the soil line but growth is usually stunted (exception: mazus reptans -- growth is same or improved if entire plant is submerged for up to 2 months). Doing it the other way around (soil or air up to the crown with water below) succeeds in almost every species I have attempted. The only aroids subjected to this inadvertant treatment are the Arisaema triphyllum and A. stewardsonii, along with Zantedeschia. Most others are closely related: various Asarum and yuccas. Species that failed the worst are supposedly "bog lovers": rodgersia, astilbes, trillium, viola tricolor, carex, marshmallow, and chilene. Other plants that did not survive more than a couple days even with crowns not submerged (at least 1" above saturated soil) are lamium, heuchera, dicentra, aster, tiarella, most ferns (except Osmonda regalis), hellebores. Doing things to the soil to help improve aeration in the standing water has not improved the plants' health: adding fish, water-aerating plants, crayfish, etc. Adding drying agents to the soil has not helped either. In conclusion, allowing plants to slowly adjust their roots from soil to water seems to have the greatest chances of survival, and most species survive this and grow bigger than normal. Adding nutrients to the water (compost tea) does not seem to make any difference in eventual plant size or health during this process; I have found that having any air between the soil layer and water prevents the plant from putting seeking roots into the water. I hope all this information on different plant species and families will help in your attempts to grow aroids in water. Kathy +More Ohio Zone 6 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2002.06.06 at 19:24:49(8964) Hi Kathy, Thank you VERY much. Your kind comments & those of others have enabled me to do further experiments which seem to be succeeding with every Spathiphyllum I now try! Please can I comment on yrs. +More ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list AROID-L" Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Observations on growing plants in bogs Ron, The past 2 springs I have had sad experience with many different plant reactions to growing in bogs. I have learned this: if the crown is submerged along with the top inch of root system for more than a short time (a day or more) the plant will die. This happens regardless of whether it has water roots or not. >>>>>>>>>This confirms my experiences. Here I immersed Spaths up to petiole bases at 30C in rigorously aerated water, the petiole bases & roots rotted slowly, they could tolerate inundation for a few weeks only. Now I realise that in UK I immersed Spaths in pots into warm stagnant water slowly & not completely & they always did well! Certain species tolerate saturated soil with water above the soil line but growth is usually stunted (exception: mazus reptans -- growth is same or improved if entire plant is submerged for up to 2 months). Doing it the other way around (soil or air up to the crown with water below) succeeds in almost every species I have attempted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wonderful confirmation! The only aroids subjected to this inadvertant treatment are the Arisaema triphyllum and A. stewardsonii, along with Zantedeschia. Most others are closely related: various Asarum and yuccas. Species that failed the worst are supposedly "bog lovers": rodgersia, astilbes, trillium, viola tricolor, carex, marshmallow, and chilene. Other plants that did not survive more than a couple days even with crowns not submerged (at least 1" above saturated soil) are lamium, heuchera, dicentra, aster, tiarella, most ferns (except Osmonda regalis), hellebores. Doing things to the soil to help improve aeration in the standing water has not improved the plants' health: adding fish, water-aerating plants, crayfish, etc. Adding drying agents to the soil has not helped either. In conclusion, allowing plants to slowly adjust their roots from soil to water seems to have the greatest chances of survival, and most species survive this and grow bigger than normal. >>>>>>>>>>>>in line with my successful trials, thanks Adding nutrients to the water (compost tea) does not seem to make any difference in eventual plant size or health during this process; >>>>>>>>>>I feel that in water culture nutrient concentrations (as in jungle streams) much weaker than maybe needed in pots seem to be adequate? I have found that having any air between the soil layer and water prevents the plant from putting seeking roots into the water. >>>>>>>>>>>>Presumably the air is not moist enough? >>>>>>>>>>I now have Spathiphyllum in pots with compost standing in water & the same with gravel in the lower half. They are both succeeding. I found in UK growth in water with VERY weak nutrient concentrations is very luxuriant. I need to determine if acclimatised Spaths being mostly water plants like immersion even above petiole bases. Some species are sold as convenient aquarium plants. They seem to do well on very weak fertiliser more P & K than N. No work watering & virtually minimal fertilising. In a few months all the Collection may be growing in circulating aerated water with thousands of "ornamental" fishes to feed the plants as they grow & breed. There are no pests so far but if any manifest they can hopefully be biologically controlled. No soil/compost mix/drainage problems? Ah! Water culture seems SO much easier for so many kinds of plants maybe?. >>>>>>>>>>>>>A valuable lesson, inundation probably needs to be slow, partial & certainly not above petiole bases at first or maybe ever? Although Spaths are prime candidates for water culture it may be that our experiences may help more aroids to be grown perhaps easier, even better in that way? I hope all this information on different plant species and families will help in your attempts to grow aroids in water. Indeed, we, & hopefully others who want to experiment? Kathy Ohio Zone 6 >>>>>>>>>>>Best Wishes Ron Iles SW tip of Ireland (nearest US) Zone 8 or 9 (in terms of LOWS)!!! (For keeping Selvan species would not a "Zoning" based on the %age of the time ambient temperatures were above 61F(!6C)?). That figure would probably be <20% here, but in Florida, would it be 80% (both areas "zone 8 or above)? _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

From: Paul Tyerman ptyerman at ozemail.com.au> on 2002.06.07 at 14:58:09(8965) >water below) succeeds in almost every species I have attempted. The only >aroids subjected to this inadvertant treatment are the Arisaema triphyllum >and A. stewardsonii, along with Zantedeschia. Most others are closely >related: various Asarum and yuccas. Species that failed the worst are >supposedly "bog lovers": rodgersia, astilbes, trillium, viola tricolor, >carex, marshmallow, and chilene. Other plants that did not survive more >than a couple days even with crowns not submerged (at least 1" above >saturated soil) are lamium, heuchera, dicentra, aster, tiarella, most ferns >(except Osmonda regalis), hellebores. > Kathy et al, If it helps, there are a number of irises that will tolerate from full permanent submersion to growing in a normal garden. It might be worth investigating their roots to find out the differences between those specimens growing within the water compared to those outside. I certainly have irises that have successfully been moved between the two, from both submersion to dry land and the other way around. Just some ideas. Cheers. Paul Tyerman +More Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Cyclamen, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!!

From: "Kathy Kempf" wont_read101 at hotmail.com> on 2002.06.09 at 03:46:57(8973) >Kathy et al, > >If it helps, there are a number of irises that will tolerate from full >permanent submersion to growing in a normal garden. It might be worth >investigating their roots to find out the differences between those >specimens growing within the water compared to those outside. I certainly >have irises that have successfully been moved between the two, from both >submersion to dry land and the other way around. I have not had the same experience with my yellow flags (Iris pseudacorus or my blue flags (Iris versicolor). They were in the same situation: water rose to above their crowns (growing points) during the spring, and rot set in quickly. If I had not lifted them they would undoubtedly have died, even though they did have "water roots". The difference seems to be whether or not they have developed "water crowns". The water level rose to about 2" above their emerged stalks. They had been in normal soil, then flooded in the spring, and the water kept rising. Maybe something wrong with the water? It comes from a natural underground stream that only runs in winter/spring with a limestone channel. The pH of this water is about 8.2, as compared with the surrounding soil of 8.8 > >Just some ideas. +More > >Cheers. > >Paul Tyerman >Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 >mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au > >Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Cyclamen, Crocus, >Cyrtanthus, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything >else that doesn't move!!!!! > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: Paul Tyerman ptyerman at ozemail.com.au> on 2002.06.09 at 16:55:00(8976) > >I have not had the same experience with my yellow flags (Iris pseudacorus or >my blue flags (Iris versicolor). They were in the same situation: water >rose to above their crowns (growing points) during the spring, and rot set >in quickly. If I had not lifted them they would undoubtedly have died, even >though they did have "water roots". The difference seems to be whether or >not they have developed "water crowns". The water level rose to about 2" >above their emerged stalks. They had been in normal soil, then flooded in >the spring, and the water kept rising. > Howdy Kathy, Actually I'd be more hazarding that the soil components rotted, thereby taking out the roots. There is a definite difference between happily potted water plants and rotting soil. The only water irises I have ever lost stank when removed... whether this was themselves or the soil I do not know. I have pots of Iris pseudacorus and I 'Gerald Darby' completely submersed in water as well as plants from teh same stock growing in a normal garden. One was grown first of each (the pseudacorus was originally a garden plant whereas the 'Gerald Darby' was originally a water plant) and then offsets were used in the alternative conditions. Plants such as Iris laevagata will grow in either situation (I have a number of them that are fully submerged.... I have been told they prefer that) yet their relatives the Iris kaempheri (syn I. ensata) tend to rot if fully submerged. BUT, I pot with a high sand content when potting water plants, which is very different to my main soil, so perhaps that is the problem when your garden plants were inundated. Ron, you said that you were getting good success with growing the Spathiphyllums that you have tried with roots in water but crowns above. Have you made notes on teh rootsystem before and after? Or even photos? Are there noticeable differences in the roots that the plant possessed when "in the ground" as opposed to "in the water"? Those sort of observations could be useful to those interested in this area. And.... I just got the Deni Bown "AROIDS: Plants of teh Arum Family" book..... WOW. So cool! So much to learn from that, and I had no idea of the variety within the "warmer" varieties of Aroid, having rarely seen many of the things shown. Some of the broad, longer strap-like leaves on some of the Anthuriums are just amazing. And I never realised that a couple of things were actually Aroids (Syngonium, Dieffenbachia for example) so the indoor plants I was going to purchase when I clean up my office have just made a right-turn in planning . From first look it is a VERY cool book. Cheers. Paul Tyerman +More Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Cyclamen, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!!

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at msn.com> on 2002.06.09 at 22:27:05(8977) > >I have not had the same experience with my yellow flags (Iris pseudacorus or >my blue flags (Iris versicolor). They were in the same situation: water >rose to above their crowns (growing points) during the spring, and rot set >in quickly. If I had not lifted them they would undoubtedly have died, even >though they did have "water roots". The difference seems to be whether or >not they have developed "water crowns". The water level rose to about 2" >above their emerged stalks. They had been in normal soil, then flooded in >the spring, and the water kept rising. > +More >>Howdy Kathy, Actually I'd be more hazarding that the soil components rotted, thereby taking out the roots. There is a definite difference between happily potted water plants and rotting soil. The only water irises I have ever lost stank when removed... whether this was themselves or the soil I do not know.<< Dear Friends, Now THIS was my exactly experience when I tried growing the neo-tropical aquatic aroid genus Urospatha in pots full of soil but with the lower 2 - 3 inches of the pot with the soil under the water surface, the SOIL rotted, stank, and the plants all died! By putting about 3 - 4 inches of larva rock or ANY rock, broken crock, etc. in the pots' bottom and soil w/ plant above this, then standing this set-up in a saucer with no more than 2 - 3" of water, and then watering from above till the roots grew out of the pots drain holes I have avoided any further deaths, and the plants thrived! Occasional treatments w/ a fungicide drench and WEAK fert., plus changing the saucer`s water regularly, and your plants will be wonderfuil!! >>I have pots of Iris pseudacorus and I 'Gerald Darby' completely submersed in water as well as plants from teh same stock growing in a normal garden. One was grown first of each (the pseudacorus was originally a garden plant whereas the 'Gerald Darby' was originally a water plant) and then offsets were used in the alternative conditions. Plants such as Iris laevagata will grow in either situation (I have a number of them that are fully submerged.... I have been told they prefer that) yet their relatives the Iris kaempheri (syn I. ensata) tend to rot if fully submerged. BUT, I pot with a high sand content when potting water plants, which is very different to my main soil, so perhaps that is the problem when your garden plants were inundated.<< Exactly my experience, VERY little or NO soil when potting for growth under water!! This 'soil' mix is highly organic, and willl quickly rot and kill the plants when submerged under water!!! And.... I just got the Deni Bown "AROIDS: Plants of teh Arum Family" book..... WOW. So cool! So much to learn from that, and I had no idea of the variety within the "warmer" varieties of Aroid, having rarely seen many of the things shown. Some of the broad, longer strap-like leaves on some of the Anthuriums are just amazing. And I never realised that a couple of things were actually Aroids (Syngonium, Dieffenbachia for example) so the indoor plants I was going to purchase when I clean up my office have just made a right-turn in planning . From first look it is a VERY cool book.<< It is THE aroid book! There are growers on the list that sometimes offer seed of some of these sps of Anthuriums, maybe you can obtain some seed through the mail and grow these treasures in Australia! Some of your mates in Australia already have some species, and perhaps they could guide you in the direction of obtaining a few! Good luck and CHEERS! Julius >>Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au

From: Dean Sliger deanslgr at juno.com> on 2002.06.09 at 22:28:47(8978) >>On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:46:57 -0500 (CDT) "Kathy Kempf" writes: > I have not had the same experience with my yellow flags (Iris +More > pseudacorus or > my blue flags (Iris versicolor). > > Maybe something wrong with the water? It comes from a natural > underground > stream that only runs in winter/spring with a limestone channel. > The pH of > this water is about 8.2, as compared with the surrounding soil of > 8.8 Kathy -- That pH is awfully high for your failed "bog lovers" (astilbe, rodgersia, marshmallow, etc.). Those irises, for example, are commonly found in ditches and stream banks where the water level fluctuates frequently with no damage ever to the plants. Without actually visiting your garden I'd say the problem lies more with the pH -- or perhaps even something else -- than the immersion. I'm not surprised that those "other" plants (heuchera, hellebore, etc.) succumbed. They're totally unsuitable for bog situations. Um, something about Aroids... Arum concinnatum are starting to bloom, and the purple callas (Z. rehmanni) have finally decided to emerge from the ground. Dean Sliger Warren, Michigan, USA Zone 6B

From: Paul Tyerman ptyerman at ozemail.com.au> on 2002.06.13 at 03:32:39(8990) Julius, Glad my comments on soil rotting in water etc, matched your experiences. Always nice to have confirmation of these things . > +More >It is THE aroid book! There are growers on the list that sometimes offer >seed of some of these sps of Anthuriums, maybe you can obtain some seed >through the mail and grow these treasures in Australia! Some of your >mates in Australia already have some species, and perhaps they could guide >you in the direction of obtaining a few! >Good luck and CHEERS! >Julius I'd need to put another level on my house to grow them I'd hazad, given teh apparent size of some of these. I really do not have an indoor plant friendly house unfortunately. I grow a lot of stuff indoors udner lights, but will not be expanding to large amounts of Anthuriums me thinks grin>. Might try to odd one or two though. This list is definitely a big benefit for finding out about genera we aren't familiar with, and of course finding sources of seed for rare little beasties that we don't have (I have 4 happy little Amorphophallus lewallei thanks to Wilbert, and two other cold-tolerant species powering along thanks to someone else). Wonderful people in these parts!! Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Cyclamen, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!!

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at msn.com> on 2002.06.14 at 15:47:32(8996) Dear Paul, Yes, confirmation of ones thoughts is always good! :--)> The secret to my aroid happines is staying small and growing just a few nice plants! Best Wishes, Julius +More >>Julius, << Always nice to have confirmation of these things . > >It is THE aroid book! There are growers on the list that sometimes offer >seed of some of these sps of Anthuriums, maybe you can obtain some seed >through the mail and grow these treasures in Australia! Some of your >mates in Australia already have some species, and perhaps they could guide >you in the direction of obtaining a few! >Good luck and CHEERS! >Julius I'd need to put another level on my house to grow them I'd hazad, given teh apparent size of some of these. I really do not have an indoor plant friendly house unfortunately. I grow a lot of stuff indoors udner lights, but will not be expanding to large amounts of Anthuriums me thinks grin>. Might try to odd one or two though. This list is definitely a big benefit for finding out about genera we aren't familiar with, and of course finding sources of seed for rare little beasties that we don't have (I have 4 happy little Amorphophallus lewallei thanks to Wilbert, and two other cold-tolerant species powering along thanks to someone else). Wonderful people in these parts!! Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au<< Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Cyclamen, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!!

From: "Kathy Kempf" wont_read101 at hotmail.com> on 2002.06.25 at 23:45:13(9001) Thanks for all your suggestions. Unfortunately, when I planted these iris and marsh marigolds and other things, I did not anticipate that they would be completely unindated by the torrential downpours we had all spring. I potted them in a fairly well-draining potting soil mix and sank the pots into the ground, with the surface about an inch above the surrounding soil level. The water level in the whole area was about 3" above that for 2 months. I tried a few times to lift the pots out and couldn't. They must have weighed 80 lbs (I am crippled and unable to carry much). When they were noticably failing in health, I managed to get the plants out of the pots, bareroot, and they have survived so far. Now that the water level has fallen in that area, I have examined the soil in my pots; no stench of "rotting" from the soil mix; but hard to tell with all the other rotting soil surrounding it. Lost a large number of plants from all the unnatural spring rains. The calla and calocadium I planted (no growth) just as the rains were starting have thrived. They came up much faster than expected in all that saturated soil; the bulbs have multiplied much faster. Could all the rotting soil be a great fertilizer for them? Something for me to investigate further. +More >From: "Julius Boos" >Reply-To: aroid-l@mobot.org >To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L >Subject: Re: Observations on growing plants in bogs >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:27:02 -0500 (CDT) > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Paul Tyerman >To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L >Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 12:55 PM >Subject: Re: Observations on growing plants in bogs > > > > > >I have not had the same experience with my yellow flags (Iris pseudacorus >or > >my blue flags (Iris versicolor). They were in the same situation: water > >rose to above their crowns (growing points) during the spring, and rot >set > >in quickly. If I had not lifted them they would undoubtedly have died, >even > >though they did have "water roots". The difference seems to be whether >or > >not they have developed "water crowns". The water level rose to about 2" > >above their emerged stalks. They had been in normal soil, then flooded >in > >the spring, and the water kept rising. > > > > >>Howdy Kathy, > >Actually I'd be more hazarding that the soil components rotted, thereby >taking out the roots. There is a definite difference between happily >potted water plants and rotting soil. The only water irises I have ever >lost stank when removed... whether this was themselves or the soil I do not >know.<< > >Dear Friends, > >Now THIS was my exactly experience when I tried growing the neo-tropical >aquatic aroid genus Urospatha in pots full of soil but with the lower 2 - 3 >inches of the pot with the soil under the water surface, the SOIL rotted, >stank, and the plants all died! By putting about 3 - 4 inches of larva >rock or ANY rock, broken crock, etc. in the pots' bottom and soil w/ plant >above this, then standing this set-up in a saucer with no more than 2 - 3" >of water, and then watering from above till the roots grew out of the pots >drain holes I have avoided any further deaths, and the plants thrived! >Occasional treatments w/ a fungicide drench and WEAK fert., plus changing >the saucer`s water regularly, and your plants will be wonderfuil!! > > >>I have pots of Iris pseudacorus and I 'Gerald Darby' completely >submersed >in water as well as plants from teh same stock growing in a normal garden. >One was grown first of each (the pseudacorus was originally a garden plant >whereas the 'Gerald Darby' was originally a water plant) and then offsets >were used in the alternative conditions. Plants such as Iris laevagata >will grow in either situation (I have a number of them that are fully >submerged.... I have been told they prefer that) yet their relatives the >Iris kaempheri (syn I. ensata) tend to rot if fully submerged. BUT, I pot >with a high sand content when potting water plants, which is very different >to my main soil, so perhaps that is the problem when your garden plants >were inundated.<< > >Exactly my experience, VERY little or NO soil when potting for growth under >water!! >This 'soil' mix is highly organic, and willl quickly rot and kill the >plants >when submerged under water!!! > >And.... I just got the Deni Bown "AROIDS: Plants of teh Arum Family" >book..... WOW. So cool! So much to learn from that, and I had no idea of >the variety within the "warmer" varieties of Aroid, having rarely seen many >of the things shown. Some of the broad, longer strap-like leaves on some >of the Anthuriums are just amazing. And I never realised that a couple of >things were actually Aroids (Syngonium, Dieffenbachia for example) so the >indoor plants I was going to purchase when I clean up my office have just >made a right-turn in planning . From first look it is a VERY cool >book.<< > >It is THE aroid book! There are growers on the list that sometimes offer >seed of some of these sps of Anthuriums, maybe you can obtain some seed >through the mail and grow these treasures in Australia! Some of your >mates in Australia already have some species, and perhaps they could guide >you in the direction of obtaining a few! >Good luck and CHEERS! >Julius > > > >>Cheers. > >Paul Tyerman >Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 >mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Note: this is a very old post, so no reply function is available.