Picking seeds before mother nature does.

From: SNALICE at aol.com on 1997.06.04 at 13:39:53(797) Hello Greg and all, I see you can pick seed clusters from sikokianums before they are ripe, can you also pick them from Arum italicum? Like Greg, I am worried that the clusters will be eaten before they can ripen. First, though, can anyone tell me what the normal cycle is for italicum seeds? I have one really nice cluster of large green fruit with a nice thick petiole under it, and a couple of smaller ones. One of the smaller ones with just a few fruits on it, has slumped to an upsidedown position, and the fruit has turned orange and shrivled. Is it normal for the fruit to turn upsidedown into a hanging position? Each one of these cluster's petioles looks like it has been nibbled by bugs just below the fruit all the way around. Does this browning happen naturally, or have they been chewed on? If they have been chewed, the sow bugs are being picky, because this is the only area between the base of the petiole and the top of the fruit that has been touched. The largest cluster is still very green and still upright with plenty of thickness in the petiole to hold them so far. My question is, if this brown area is caused by bugs, and it's just a matter of time before they fall over, can I clip them while green and expect them to ripen? The petiole which has already flipped, had green fruit when it slumped, and turned orange while in the hanging position. The petiole on this one is soft and limp where it turned brown. Is it ok to harvest this one? Thank you, Sue Zunino

From: JimMcClem at aol.com on 1997.06.05 at 19:15:27(799) Sue When the situation that you describe happens to arisaemas, it usually means that no fertile seeds are present. "False pregnancies" are commonly seen, where it appears that a seedhead is developing, the berries begin to enlarge, but then the peduncle starts to wither and the whole thing falls over. If you check one of the berries, it usually contains nothing resembling a seed. I've never paid that much attention to Arum italicum, but I'd bet that the same thing pertains. When we take an unripe seedhead of A. sikokianum and allow the berries to get red, there are seeds present, and we do it in November or December when the cold weather has produced the withering of the peduncle. Jim McClements, Dover, DE

From: SNALICE at aol.com on 1997.06.06 at 18:25:51(806) Jim, Before I thought of checking for actual seed, I picked the smallest of the inflorescences (which had orange fruit on it) that had fallen over, and took the fruit off, one by one, and dropped them in some dampened vermiculite to see what would happen. When I read your note, I picked one up and squeezed it (why I didn't think of this first, I don't know, and I hope no one noticed!), and out came a little white seed! I am assuming that the other larger infructesences are fertile as well. Now I suppose the question is whether I should allow them to fall over or pick them. I just don't know what they are SUPPOSED to do. The peduncle on the largest infructescence (if that's correct) may be able to hold upright until the fruit turns, but I'm afraid to wait to find out, unless this is what they are supposed to do. Well, in view of the little one having fallen over, and still turning orange, and having actual seed inside, they should be alright left alone? Since they produced seed, does this mean that the seed will be viable? +More >>>>When we take an unripe seedhead of A. sikokianum and allow the berries to get red, there are seeds present, and we do it in November or December when the cold weather has produced the withering of the peduncle.<<<< Exactly where does the peduncle wither naturally, at the base of the fruit cluster? Thank you for your help, Sue

From: grsjr at juno.com (George R Stilwell, Jr.) on 1997.06.06 at 21:08:39(807) Sue, You need to remove the fruity stuff and clean the seed before you plant it. Chemicals in the fruit will prevent the seed from germinating. This also lets you see how many seed there really are. Ordinarily Arisaema have several seed per berry. Ray +More

From: SMWills33 at aol.com on 1997.06.08 at 03:49:39(809) Sue we grow Arum italicum pictum here in England (Zone 9, probably) and the fruiting head, which is forming now, stays upright until it turns bright orange and, eventually, the berries drop off the still upright peduncle. I would try to leave the seeds to develope naturally if at all possible, but if any plants are attacked try sowing the seeds that have formed, after washing off the surrounding fruit. Slugs seem to be the main enemy for us, chewing part way through the stem. Hope this helps Simon Wills +More Clevedon, England.

From: SNALICE at aol.com on 1997.06.08 at 16:16:13(810) Hello Simon, >>>>we grow Arum italicum pictum here in England (Zone 9, probably) and the fruiting head, which is forming now, stays upright until it turns bright orange and, eventually, the berries drop off the still upright peduncle.<<<< +More Have you ever noticed a brown ring around the peduncle just under the fruit? It is about 3/8" wide, is indented, looks pitted, and is in the shape of a crown (wider on one side than the other with the point down.) The rings on both peduncles look the same, even in shape. Sow bugs hang out at the base of the peduncles, and under some copper strips I put down around the plants to keep snails and slugs away (electrolysis). I have never noticed any snails and slugs around them, but I think the sow bugs like it for cover. I know sow bugs can do some real damage, but I have never caught one on that part of the stem. Now that the peduncles are pitted, I am wondering if this allows moisture to penatrate the stem, perhaps allowing it to rot. This may be why the smallest one tipped over. It was soft, as though it had rotted where it was pitted. The few fruits that were there, maybe 4, went ahead and turned orange after it had slumped, so I pinched one, and it had a small white seed inside. Is a white see a good seed? The fruit clusters that are left, are much larger, with many more fruits, and the peduncles are still well able to hold up the fruit. The fruit on top seems to be turning a lighter green. Is this the start of turning orange, or are they turning orange prematurely? These plants were roughly transplanted while in the blooming stage, and even though the leaves died, the inflorescences still developed fruit. Nice large fruit! >>>>I would try to leave the seeds to develope naturally if at all possible,<<<< So it would be better to let them fall over and see if they turn orange before I pick them? Or/and pick them after the peduncle has fallen, whether they are orange or not? >>>>try sowing the seeds that have formed<<<< At what point is a seed considered formed? What is your method of washing the seed? I am in zone 9 also....on the North Pacific coast. A lot of questions, I know. I really appreciate the help! Thank you, Sue

From: SMWills33 at aol.com on 1997.06.09 at 22:39:14(817) Hello Sue Thank you for your queries which I found really stimulating. When one has grown a plant for some years one tends to forget what it really does, so I had great fun today going out to look. +More >>>> Have you ever noticed a brown ring around the peduncle just under the fruit? It is about 3/8" wide, is indented, looks pitted, and is in the shape of a crown (wider on one side than the other with the point down.) The rings on both peduncles look the same, even in shape.>>>> Could this ring be where the spathe grew from the peduncle, and the sow bugs have eaten the dead remains of the spathe? The open side of the spathe tube grows further down the peduncle than the back and gives the shape you mention when it has died back. >>>>Now that the peduncles are pitted, I am wondering if this allows moisture to penatrate the stem, perhaps allowing it to rot. This may be why the smallest one tipped over. It was soft, as though it had rotted where it was pitted. The few fruits that were there, maybe 4, went ahead and turned orange after it had slumped, so I pinched one, and it had a small white seed inside. Is a white see a good seed? >>>> I think that the smallest one probably tipped over because there were not enough flowers in the inflorescence that had been pollinated - perhaps, in fact, none. The plant then has no reason to expend energy in maintaining the peduncle, which collapses. (This is a pretty un-scientific description of the process, and I am sure others can improve on it! :-)) There is an excellent monograph 'The Genus Arum' by Peter Boyce (ISBN 0 11 250085 4) and I hope he will forgive me for quoting briefly from this. "Each seed consists of a leathery, reticulate testa, enclosing the copious, starchy endosperm." From this I would think that the small white seeds you have are not fully developed - they should be pale buff in colour and with the reticulate surface he describes. >>>>The fruit clusters that are left, are much larger, with many more fruits, and the peduncles are still well able to hold up the fruit. The fruit on top seems to be turning a lighter green. Is this the start of turning orange, or are they turning orange prematurely? >>>> Some of the fruits I have here are just beginning to turn pale green/yellow, and you are, presumably, further south than us. So far as I can remember from last year they take a long time to turn completely orange-red - into the early fall - and the peduncle remains upright until the berries are fully ripe and dispersed. >>>>So it would be better to let them fall over and see if they turn orange before I pick them? Or/and pick them after the peduncle has fallen, whether they are orange or not?>>>> It would be best to leave them on the plant until they begin either to fall off or to be eaten by birds. In passing, I am not sure whether the berries actually fall off of their own volition, or get knocked off by careless birds feeding. In any event you need, then, to get there before the birds have the lot. For cleaning the seeds from the pulp it is only neccessary to squeeze the seeds out and rinse off any adhering pulp and then sow straight away. Thin rubber gloves will protect your hands from the calcium oxalate crystals in the pulp, and you do not want to get the pulp in you eyes or on your lips. Simon

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