Unknown Philo from hawaii

From: "Bluesea" chammer at cfl.rr.com> on 2006.08.11 at 06:49:44(14493) OK Aroidnuts, I'm really confused here. Philodendron scandens is now P. hederaceum. But according to Dr Croat (via information from Steve Lucas), the species hederaceum PLUS v. miduhoi PLUS v. micans are now ALL just called P. hederaceum! No more variety names to separate and distinguish the two different old varieties from the species? And there ARE physical differences. +More Can anyone here clear this up for me? Russ central Fla _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2006.08.22 at 15:55:26(14541) I received cuttings of an unusual philo from a plant collecting friend in Hawaii. She found this plant near the east coast of Oahu and had never seen the plant before. I planted my cuttings in May, 2006 and they have grown quickly. I now have 10 leaves, the largest of which is now 7 1/2 inches (19cm) and the plant has climbed over 2 feet (64cm). New leaves appear weekly. The underside of each leaf is a pale burgundy and the face of the leaf has a velvet texture. Each leaf opens from a "sheath" (for lack of a proper term) and the "sheath" curls up and remains after the leaf blade opens. This is one of the fastest growing vines I have in the atrium. When the collector sent it she said it was growing in full sun so I have placed it in the brightest portion of my atrium. I was recently informed the county bulldozed the area where these were growing and no trace is left of the plant. Photos are attached. If these photos help anyone recognize the plant I'd love to know. Steve Lucas +More www.ExoticRainforest.com Attachment: Unknown Philo from Hawaii.jpg Description: JPEG image _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: abri1973 at wp.pl> on 2006.08.22 at 20:53:16(14542) Hello, Isn't it Ph. melanochrysum? I have one, but my plant has darker leaves and they also are velvety and brownish underside, you may compare with the specimen in my page: http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/philodendron/melan.htm Marek Argent +More ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: [Aroid-l] Unknown Philo from hawaii I received cuttings of an unusual philo from a plant collecting friend in Hawaii. She found this plant near the east coast of Oahu and had never seen the plant before. I planted my cuttings in May, 2006 and they have grown quickly. I now have 10 leaves, the largest of which is now 7 1/2 inches (19cm) and the plant has climbed over 2 feet (64cm). New leaves appear weekly. The underside of each leaf is a pale burgundy and the face of the leaf has a velvet texture. Each leaf opens from a "sheath" (for lack of a proper term) and the "sheath" curls up and remains after the leaf blade opens. This is one of the fastest growing vines I have in the atrium. When the collector sent it she said it was growing in full sun so I have placed it in the brightest portion of my atrium. I was recently informed the county bulldozed the area where these were growing and no trace is left of the plant. Photos are attached. If these photos help anyone recognize the plant I'd love to know. Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2006.08.22 at 21:30:55(14545) Dr. Croat has saw the photos 3 months ago and did not indicate it is this plant. I sent him new ones today. I also grow P. melanochrysum and that one is slow growing by comparison to this one. It certainly may be but I have P. melanochrysum growing just 10 feet from this one and this one outpaces it daily. I wrote the text I posted a few days ago saying I had 10 leaves and today I have 14. But I don't discount it may be P. melanochrysum. Steve Lucas +More www.ExoticRainforest.com ----- Original Message ----- From: abri1973@wp.pl To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Unknown Philo from hawaii Hello, Isn't it Ph. melanochrysum? I have one, but my plant has darker leaves and they also are velvety and brownish underside, you may compare with the specimen in my page: http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/philodendron/melan.htm Marek Argent ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: [Aroid-l] Unknown Philo from hawaii I received cuttings of an unusual philo from a plant collecting friend in Hawaii. She found this plant near the east coast of Oahu and had never seen the plant before. I planted my cuttings in May, 2006 and they have grown quickly. I now have 10 leaves, the largest of which is now 7 1/2 inches (19cm) and the plant has climbed over 2 feet (64cm). New leaves appear weekly. The underside of each leaf is a pale burgundy and the face of the leaf has a velvet texture. Each leaf opens from a "sheath" (for lack of a proper term) and the "sheath" curls up and remains after the leaf blade opens. This is one of the fastest growing vines I have in the atrium. When the collector sent it she said it was growing in full sun so I have placed it in the brightest portion of my atrium. I was recently informed the county bulldozed the area where these were growing and no trace is left of the plant. Photos are attached. If these photos help anyone recognize the plant I'd love to know. Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2006.08.22 at 21:54:51(14546) I am attaching a photo of the philo from Hawaii in what I'm told is the adult form. This photo was provided by the plant collector who sent me the plant from Hawaii and is one of the plants she collected on the roadside. Steve Lucas +More www.ExoticRainforest.com Attachment: unknown philo.JPG Description: JPEG image _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: RAYMOMATTLA at cs.com on 2006.08.22 at 23:12:28(14547) Would I be way off to say this is perhaps P. scandens? Just a guess, Michael M. _______________________________________________ +More Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Brian Williams pugturd at alltel.net> on 2006.08.23 at 01:02:07(14548) Philodendron micans I believe it is also called scandens Michael same plant in most books. _______________________________________________ +More Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2006.08.23 at 01:16:26(14549) You are probably correct. Russ Hammer just sent me photos of P. scandens ver. miduhoi and it is virtually identical. So I'd guess the two of you have found what it is. Thanks! Steve Lucas +More www.ExoticRainforest.com ----- Original Message ----- From: RAYMOMATTLA@cs.com To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Unknown Philo from hawaii Would I be way off to say this is perhaps P. scandens? Just a guess,Michael M. _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Martha Marcela" araceae at gmail.com> on 2006.08.23 at 15:56:55(14552) Dear Steve, The correct name for P. scandens is Philodendron hederaceum (Jacq.) Schott. P. scandens is just a synonym. Marcela +More Marcela Mora Adjunct Curator Herbario Nacional Colombiano Universidad Nacional de Colombia On 8/22/06, Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest wrote: You are probably correct. Russ Hammer just sent me photos of P. scandens ver. miduhoi and it is virtually identical. So I'd guess the two of you have found what it is. Thanks! Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com ----- Original Message ----- To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Unknown Philo from hawaii Would I be way off to say this is perhaps P. scandens? Just a guess,Michael M. _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2006.08.23 at 22:35:25(14553) Thank you. You are certainly technically correct. I have spent a good deal of time today reading Dr. Croat's journals regarding this species. We are apparently dealing with a variation of this plant and I am not sure exactly how this variation is to be named. The variation does not apparently look like the normal plant when it reaches its adult form. I have asked Dr. Croat for a clarifiication but as yet have not received a response. Thanks again. Steve Lucas +More www.ExoticRainforest.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Martha Marcela To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Unknown Philo from hawaii Dear Steve, The correct name for P. scandens is Philodendron hederaceum (Jacq.) Schott. P. scandens is just a synonym. Marcela Marcela Mora Adjunct Curator Herbario Nacional Colombiano Universidad Nacional de Colombia On 8/22/06, Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest wrote: You are probably correct. Russ Hammer just sent me photos of P. scandens ver. miduhoi and it is virtually identical. So I'd guess the two of you have found what it is. Thanks! Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com ----- Original Message ----- From: RAYMOMATTLA@cs.com To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Unknown Philo from hawaii Would I be way off to say this is perhaps P. scandens? Just a guess,Michael M. _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________Aroid-l mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Tom Croat" Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2006.08.26 at 02:48:41(14561) Dear Russ: It depends on if you are really talking about elements of Philodendron hederaceum or if you have something else. P. micans and P. miduhoi are certainly synonyms. There are vaguely recognizable subspecies which I treated but you would scarcely notice the differences. Alternatively you must remember that you may be seeing only two or three varients of something that is infinitely variable throughout its range. Collect a plant from Mexico, Nicaragua, Colombia and Brazil and take them back to Florida and you might be able to distinquish each of them indefinitely but remember that if you collected from all the populations throughout the range of the species you would be hard pressed to find any way place where you could draw the line between one population and the next. That is the nature of evolution and also the nature of horticultural elements that you are looking at only small bits of a spectrum. Now, of course it is also possible that you really are dealing with misdetermined plants. Tom +More [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Bluesea Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:50 AM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: [Aroid-l] Unknown Philo from hawaii OK Aroidnuts, I'm really confused here. Philodendron scandens is now P. hederaceum. But according to Dr Croat (via information from Steve Lucas), the species hederaceum PLUS v. miduhoi PLUS v. micans are now ALL just called P. hederaceum! No more variety names to separate and distinguish the two different old varieties from the species? And there ARE physical differences. Can anyone here clear this up for me? Russ central Fla _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Hermine hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2006.08.26 at 04:34:39(14562) It depends on if you are really talking about elements of Philodendron hederaceum or if you have something else. P. micans and P. miduhoi are certainly synonyms. There are vaguely recognizable subspecies which I treated but you would scarcely notice the differences. Alternatively you must remember that you may be seeing only two or three varients of something that is infinitely variable throughout its range. Collect a plant from Mexico, Nicaragua, Colombia and Brazil and take them back to Florida and you might be able to distinquish each of them indefinitely but remember that if you collected from all the populations throughout the range of the species you would be hard pressed to find any way place where you could draw the line between one population and the next. That is the nature of evolution and also the nature of horticultural elements that you are looking at only small bits of a spectrum. Now, of course it is also possible that you really are dealing with misdetermined plants. Tom (raises hand) could I quote you on this subject? I have been trying to say this for years, but since i am not a pro, and also not that good at grunting out a coherent paragraph sometimes, I have never been able to express this in perfectly understandable english. hermine +More PS I would apply the quote as it applies to taxonomy problems in GENERAL, not about Philodendrons. _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

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