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  Helicodiceros potting
From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.01.29 at 00:06:19(15184)
Aroiders,

recently I read somewhere that Helicodiceros muscivorus tubers should be
potted horizontically instead of vertically.

Any comments?

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From: "D. Christopher Rogers" <crogers at ecoanalysts.com> on 2007.01.31 at 09:13:14(15187)
Hiyer,

I have never planted them horizontally, but I might give it a try as an
experiment. I plant them vertically, and get many flowers and lots of
offsets.

Good luck!
Christopher

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From: Geoffrey Kibby <fieldmycol at yahoo.co.uk> on 2007.01.31 at 10:07:28(15189)
Hi Bernhard,

My Helicodiceros is just flowering now and I just put the tuber in
vertically as normal, it seems perfectly happy!

Geoffrey Kibby

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From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2007.01.31 at 15:40:27(15190)
Reply-To : Discussion of aroids
Sent : Monday, January 29, 2007 8:06 AM
To : "aroid-L"
Subject : [Aroid-l] Helicodiceros potting

My Dear Friend Bernhard,

All aroid tubers should be planted, depending on their shape and form,
basically so that the growing point/terminal bud is pointing vertically
UPWARDS. I really can see no benifit on planting a tuber horizontally
(with the growing point pointing side-ways).

Good Luck!

Julius

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From: "Antony Orpin" <antandfenna at ballyveely36.fsnet.co.uk> on 2007.02.01 at 13:45:04(15193)
Hello Aroiders,
Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons: My plants grow along the
horizontal plane (tuber wise) if given a large pot, so I always repot them
as I find them. The tuber does grow a little higher each season, but I
find that it is always in the general horizontal direction as a whole. I
get many offsets (maybe 10 plus each year from a large tuber), I have never
considered planting them any other way, maybe I will give it a go next year,
just to see.

Tony

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From: Baumfarn Webmaster <webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2007.02.01 at 14:16:45(15194)
Flowering ?
Great! congratulations!
Do you have pictures?
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From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.02.01 at 14:40:24(15195)
Dear Christopher,

nice to read that H.m. does so good with your treatment.

I once got some small offsets from Jim W. ((Waddick) - thanks Jim!)) in
2002 and they did well the first year.
Thereafter they rather grew smaller due to spider mites and maybe wrong
watering. This was so for some years and now they are gone.... sob, sob,
sob... :-(

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From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.02.01 at 14:45:30(15196)
Hi Geoffrey,

thanks for your answer from the island!

And indeed it was a note in an ebay offer from ebay-UK where it was
mentioned that H.m. should be potted horizotically - unfortunately I
deleted the item-number already.

Good growing,
Bernhard.

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From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.02.01 at 14:53:51(15197)
My dear Julius,

that you point at the growing point is (of course) one of the best
points you could ever make!!!

Actually, I wondered, too, why this was recommended.

The only benefit I could see is that the offsets or dormant "eyes" might
grow more happily being released from the apical dominance of the main
growing point.

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From: Geoffrey Kibby <fieldmycol at yahoo.co.uk> on 2007.02.02 at 09:16:24(15202)
Hi Peter,I have uploaded three photos to my webspace, they can be accessed by going to: http://members.aol.com/Helicodiceros.jpg, http://members.aol.com/Helicodiceros2.jpg and http://members.aol.com/Helicodiceros4.jpgPlease note that there is NO www. in the address, also make sure there is no forward slash after the .jpg.The smell was quite revolting, very strong of excrement (dog) but fairly short-lived. The plant grew throughout November-January outdoors in temperatures around 35-50 degrees Farenheit and flowered this week (it is still in flower) so it is obviously quite tough. Very attractive in a gruesome sort of way..... the spadix has these amazing stiff, slightly curled bristles all over it. Theory is that it resembles the back end of a dead animal, tail and allβ€”cute! Certainly smells like one.Best wishes,GeoffreyLondonOn 1 Feb 2007, at 22:16, Baumfarn Webmaster wrote:Flowering ?Great! congratulations!Do you have pictures?And can you give some impressions of the odor?greetingsPeterGeo
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From: James Waddick <jwaddick at kc.rr.com> on 2007.02.02 at 11:34:30(15205)
Dear all;
This strikes me as an odd topic. My tubers are all somewhat
similar to tuberous Arum which have horizontal tubers (like A
italicum) with a growing point on one end turned upright. It is not
as if the growing tip is at the end and continuation of the tuber
such as in some other tuberous aroids. I plant them horizontally with
the growing point facing upwards.

I have had this species for a number of years and they seem
to do better some years than others and the one time they bloomed-
multiple flowers - the smell varied from hour to hour and person to
person. At its worst it was pretty awful.

Of course in my climate, they are pot grown and winter in a
cool frost free greenhouse.

One time I had some extra smaller tubers and thought I'd try
planting them in the garden in some high and dry spots. All failed -
or so I thought. Two years ago I was astonished to find a couple
small whispy leaves growing next to a dry log in the hottest driest
part of the garden. They have returned since, but do not seem even
vaguely large enough to flower. This year we have gone down to -5 F,
so let's see what returns.

The fact that they even persist in my climate - Zone 5/6 and
have been subjected to temps of 0 F for extended periods should
suggest that they be tried in Zone 6 (Steve Marek, have you tried
them?).

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From: "D. Christopher Rogers" <crogers at ecoanalysts.com> on 2007.02.02 at 16:18:56(15209)
Howdy!

I guess I did not think about it much before. I just assumed that when it
was said that the tubers were potted horizontally, then they were "stood
upright" with the apical meristem pointing laterally, rather than laid down
with the apical meristem pointing upward. If that is what was meant, then I
still mean to experiment. It seems that since these plants grow in the wild
in cracks in rocks, and often vertical rocks, this might not be a bad thing
to try.

Cheerio,
Christopher

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From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.02.03 at 11:37:06(15215)
Tony,

when you write about 10 offsets from a large tuber, how would the
measurements of a large one be (in inch or cm)?

Curious,
Bernhard.

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From: "mossytrail" <mossytrail at hctc.com> on 2007.02.03 at 12:41:15(15216)
> The only benefit I could see is that the offsets or
> dormant "eyes" might grow more happily being released from
> the apical dominance of the main growing point.
> But maybe that's no point at all....
>
That makes sense... but to make a more obvious (?)
observation, in the wild, where the plant was spreading out
by offsets, probably the offsets would angle away from the
parent tuber. And if the species has a rhizomatous growth,
lengthening over time, it more likely naturally lengthens
across the ground rather than rising above or burrowing
deeper. Just the other day, at Lyon Arboretum, I saw some
Xanthosoma of the type with "banana-like" trunks, but grown
so long the trunks were lying on the ground, with just the
"head" raised up.

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From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.02.04 at 03:11:12(15218)
Dear Jim W.,

the observations you describe are very intersting. I should look up what
are the minimun temperatures in Sardinia nad Korsika.

I was already estonished when Peter from Austria wrote in his forum
(http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern/) that his H.m. was doing well on his
balcony in the mild winter we have this year; however they tolerated a
few minus °C (approx. -20 °F).

The paeasized tubers I got from you in 2002 grew to about 1/2 inch
length and then "grew" smaller each year.
Your obsevations about planting them horizontally might add to my
failure since I potted them always vertiacally.

Good growing and all the best,
Bernhard.

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From: Steve Marak <samarak at gizmoworks.com> on 2007.02.04 at 23:43:02(15220)
On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, James Waddick wrote:

> One time I had some extra smaller tubers and thought I'd try
> planting them in the garden in some high and dry spots. All failed -
> or so I thought. Two years ago I was astonished to find a couple
> small whispy leaves growing next to a dry log in the hottest driest
> part of the garden. They have returned since, but do not seem even
> vaguely large enough to flower. This year we have gone down to -5 F,
> so let's see what returns.
>
> The fact that they even persist in my climate - Zone 5/6 and
> have been subjected to temps of 0 F for extended periods should
> suggest that they be tried in Zone 6 (Steve Marek, have you tried
> them?).

Hi Jim,

No, I haven't, but I certainly will after reading that, especially since I'd
already planned to expand one of the fill sand beds this year.

I know I got a "starter" Helicodiceros from someone on the list - the records
are probably on that same hard drive I've been vainly trying to pull 12 year
old Aroid-L archives from - but I never actually thought about trying it
outdoors here, which is unlike me. On reading this thread, I realized I haven't
seen it in the greenhouse for quite a while either, so the tag hunt and
excavation is on ....

Steve

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From: "Agoston Janos" <agoston.janos at citromail.hu> on 2007.02.05 at 09:19:02(15222)
My opinon is, that Helicodiceros and other aroids must be
planted with the bud upright. Once I planted (3 years ago) Arisaema speciosum
- which you may know - has got a spindle like tuber horizontally instead of
vertically. It started to rot, and it also started to produce small
offsets. (Discarded...)

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From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.02.05 at 12:03:44(15225)
Aroiders,

here is a new offer at ebay where the horizontal planting is mentioned.

search for item no 140082503517

BTW, it's not me who's offering it... ;-)

Happy planting,
Bernhard.

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From: Baumfarn Webmaster <webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2007.02.05 at 15:45:15(15229)
Hi Bernhard,
even at aroid.org the minimum temperature mentiones is 0 F (Helicodiceros muscivorus (Zone
7b Raleigh, NC) 0F)
Probably a typo??! ;-) and you meant +20 F which comes quite closed to
-7 C
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From: "D. Christopher Rogers" <crogers at ecoanalysts.com> on 2007.02.05 at 18:15:34(15230)
Hiyer!

Here in
central California, we have had some unusually cold weather this year. We went
for a whole week with lows between –5C (22F) and 1C (33F). We still are having
some frost in any place shady most mornings, but my Helicodiceros (both new
offsets and old plants) are coming up and looking great!

Hope this
is useful,

Christopher

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From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.02.05 at 23:16:26(15232)
Hallo Peter,

genau, ein Tippfehler.....

Aroiders,

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From: Baumfarn Webmaster <webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2007.02.07 at 13:29:50(15246)
Hi Christopher,
can you please be so kind and tell me at which time of the year Heli-mu
starts to thrive and what kind of climate you have normally at that
time.

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From: "D. Christopher Rogers" <crogers at ecoanalysts.com> on 2007.02.08 at 09:03:58(15256)
Hi, Peter!

This is probably far more information than you wanted, but I figure I
should tell as much as I can in the hopes that it will help some, and others
can tell me if I am doing something wrong.

I have my plants as a very generous gift from a buddy. I live 30 minutes
northwest of Sacramento on the west side of the California Central Valley at an
altitude of about 20 m (65 ft). The USDA Plant Hardiness Map puts me in on the
border of Zone 9a and 9b. We sometimes get a maritime influence from the
Sacramento River Delta to the south west, keeping us from dropping below 0C
(32F) and covering us with maritime fog. However, cold air coming down the
valleys in the Interior Coast Ranges to the west will push us down to –2C (28F).
This year was particularly cold, and we had two weeks with lows between –5C (22F) and
1C (33F). Normally we have a typical Mediterranean climate, with a hot, dry
summer and a cool, wet winter, but this year it has been very dry. The lack of
cloud cover has let us drop in temperature. (Although we finally got some rain
last night!!!)

I have had the Helicodiceros muscivorus two years now, and in both years
they started popping up in January. Last year was very wet, and we had very
little frost at all. The small plants pop up first. The frost did not seem to
bother them at all. The larger plants began pushing up at the end of January
(both years). I have them under a very large, very old butterfly bush (Buddelia
davidii), where they receive morning sun from 9 AM to a little after 12. Immediately
to the west of them is my greenhouse, and they get light filtered through the
greenhouse until 4 PM. Last year, the large plant produced two flowers in May,
and I hope to get more flowers this year.

The plants are potted, and are sitting with (also potted) Arum italicum,
A. dioscoridis dioscoridis, A. cyrenaicum, A. sintenesii, A. hygrophilum, A.
palestinum, Arisarum simmorrhinum, and Dracunculus vulgaris, which are all up.
The Dracunculus came up at the same time as the Helicodiceros, but the others
have all been up since November. There are also several pots of Arisaema and
Pinellia that have not come up yet, and I do not expect them for some time yet.

I pot the bulbs on a layer of sand, with a rich medium of peat, compost,
pumice and sand around and on top. The bottom sand layer seems to help prevent
rot.

I really hope this helps you Peter, and anyone else out there that
enjoys these wonderful aroids!!

Happy days,

Christopher

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From: "StroWi at t-online.de" <StroWi at t-online.de> on 2007.02.08 at 23:01:18(15265)
Hi Christohpher!

Thanks for the detailed information! That helps a lot.

When you write that your plants are grown in pots, are the pots dug in
the soil or are they just standing on top of the garden soil?

That could make a difference, since the substrate in the pot can freeze
more easiely when the pot is standing on top of the soil and is not
protected like is is when you dig a hole and put the pot in it.

Good growing,
Bernhard.

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From: "D. Christopher Rogers" <crogers at ecoanalysts.com> on 2007.02.09 at 08:18:50(15268)
Hiyer,

The pots (plastic) are on a bench 38 cm (15 in) above the ground. I should
mention also that since yesterday it has been raining (finally!!! Hooray!!!)
and the rain has accelerated the growth of the plants. Of course, the cloud
cover has pushed our low temperatures well above freezing. Last night the
low was 4C (40F).

Glad to be helpful!
Christopher

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From: Baumfarn Webmaster <webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2007.02.09 at 08:23:32(15270)
Thanks Christopher,
not too much, seems that you knew what I want to know ;-))
AFAIK, you have nearly the same cliamte conditions like in Corsica or
Sardinia.
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From: Baumfarn Webmaster <webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2007.02.09 at 08:26:01(15271)
Hi Geoffrey,
BTW can you give us the sizes of your plant (height) and pot (diameter,
height)?

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From: "D. Christopher Rogers" <crogers at ecoanalysts.com> on 2007.02.09 at 09:33:55(15272)
Hello, Peter!

Glad that I was helpful!

On our coast, there is often dense growth of mosses, annuals and perennials
in the cracks of the rocks. Often there is forest above the rocks, and much
leaf litter falls or is washed down between them. With all the wind and rain
run-off it seems to me that this is a good place for organic material to
collect. Maybe Helicodiceros does not need as much peat and compost as I am
giving it. But it sure seems happy!

Cheerio,

Christopher

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From: Geoffrey Kibby <fieldmycol at yahoo.co.uk> on 2007.02.10 at 02:09:53(15276)
Dear Peter,

Thank you for the address of your website - good job! - the pictures
have come out well. I also enjoyed seeing the photos of the other
aroid species.

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From: Baumfarn Webmaster <webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2007.02.11 at 12:45:55(15279)
Dear Geoffrey,
thanks that you liked my website.

Just 15 cm, really?! The pot seems larger on the pics, so there is no
need to repot my Heli.-musc. before dying back.

--> http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern/viewtopic.php?t55&start

greetings

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From: piaba <piabinha at yahoo.com> on 2007.02.13 at 13:29:36(15290)
geoff, did you move your pics? i couldn't find them
today.

--- Geoffrey Kibby wrote:

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From: Geoffrey Kibby <fieldmycol at yahoo.co.uk> on 2007.02.14 at 06:34:57(15295)
Hi Tsuh yang,

My apologies, I didn't quite get the address correct! it should be
http://members.aol.com/geoffaroid/Helicodiceros.jpg, http://
members.aol.com/geoffaroid/Helicodiceros2.jpg and http://
members.aol.com/geoffaroid/Helicodiceros4.jpg

Let me know if you have any problems.

Regards,
Geoffrey

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