Common names

From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2007.02.22 at 06:58:30(15319) Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Wednesday, February 21, 2007 5:37 PM To : Discussion of aroids Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina' Dear Friends, Well said, Jonathan. As we agree, there are LAWS governing the names and naming of plants, I believe the science is called Etemology, Dr. Dan Nicolson`s name comes to mind. Then there is Taxonomy to contend with, and we are so fortunate to have people like Dr. Croat and Goncalves and Wilbert Hetterschied to assist us in this field. Those who seem to love to say stuff like "well Graff called it such-and-such first, therefor this name is correct" are patently incorrect, but there are people who will never be convinced otherwise, let them be. Graff and Burley-Marx NEVER claimed to be Taxonomists, but they were fantastic collectors, growers and hobbyists, but no matter how huge a contribution they made to horticulture and popularizing plants, their names of plants often were just made-up ones FAR from the scientifically accurate ones we now are trying to stabalize. Good Growing, Julius +More Steve, Basically what you have run into is the curse of the common name. It is a challenge compounded here for several reasons, the first being financial, since at least some are going to equate the common name 'Santa Leopoldina' with the extremely rare and therefore extremely valuable Philo. spiritus-sancti. I find it very interesting that some are suggesting that the common name be used in a much more widespread way, as it currently seems to be whether purposefully or not. Of course, the more widespread the usage, the less use the common name has - but that may well be the point that these folks are raising, whether intentionally or not. The whole idea of which plant takes precedence for holding this common name is almost implying some sort of pseudo-scientific status for the common name, of which there is none. It doesn't really matter which plant Graf assigned that common name to - the fact that it has become more widespread is just the way it is. Some will argue a "rightful owner" for the common name, but since it is a common name the argument doesn't have much substance. On a brighter note, this has been very useful for me to share with some of my students as a great example of the challenges of common names. I used to just use the local example of going to a nursery and asking about a native plant called "spice bush," and how you had a one in three or one in four chance of getting the specific plant that you had in mind. But your web site pointing up all the Philodendrons, including both species and likely hybrids as well, that are potentially called 'Santa Leopoldina' has my spice bush example well trumped. Good Growing. Jonathan<< Interestingly, I have received far more response to my request for your input on the use of the term 'Santa Leopoldina' in personal email than an exchange of ideas on this board. I have gathered as much as possible and now posted it on a permanent page on the website. I also find it of interest that more than one person appears to feel I should just drop the subject and let the name 'Santa Leopoldina' be used for any plant in the jungle with a long blade. Certainly, I make no pretense to be the final authority. Anyone can call any plant by any name they choose. Several of us are just curious why so many growers and sellers use that name for so many different plants? And the list is still growing. I now have 12 plants on the page and there are more to be found on the internet. One writer pointed out since Graf's use of the term predates either Bette Waterbury or other more recent articles his plant should take precedence. Does that mean Philodendron spiritus-sancti should not be the rightful owner? I no longer have his books so I cannot personally comment. Again, I invite your comments and will post anyone's comment who grants permission. I ask you post them here so we all can read your opinions. Of course, if you'd rather send me a personal note, feel free. Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com http://www.exoticrainforest.com/what%20is%20it.html _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l Reply | Reply All | Forward Go to previous message | Go to next message | Delete | Inbox Get the latest updates from MSN MSN Home | My MSN | Hotmail | Search | Shopping | Money | People & Chat Feedback | Help © 2007 Microsoft TERMS OF USE Advertise TRUSTe Approved Privacy Statement GetNetWise Anti-Spam Policy MSN Home | My MSN | Hotmail | Shopping | Money | People & Chat Sign out of .NET Passport sites Web Search: go to MSN Hotmail Today Mail Calendar Contacts Options | Help ju-bo@msn.com Free Newsletters Reply Reply | Reply All Reply All | Forward Forward | Delete Delete | Junk Mail Junk | Put In Folder Put in Folder | Print Print View | Contact Save Address Inbox Sent Messages Drafts Trash Can Report Junk E-Mail Report and Block Sender Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Wednesday, February 21, 2007 5:37 PM To : Discussion of aroids Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina' Leopoldina' Steve, Basically what you have run into is the curse of the common name. It is a challenge compounded here for several reasons, the first being financial, since at least some are going to equate the common name 'Santa Leopoldina' with the extremely rare and therefore extremely valuable Philo. spiritus-sancti. I find it very interesting that some are suggesting that the common name be used in a much more widespread way, as it currently seems to be whether purposefully or not. Of course, the more widespread the usage, the less use the common name has - but that may well be the point that these folks are raising, whether intentionally or not. The whole idea of which plant takes precedence for holding this common name is almost implying some sort of pseudo-scientific status for the common name, of which there is none. It doesn't really matter which plant Graf assigned that common name to - the fact that it has become more widespread is just the way it is. Some will argue a "rightful owner" for the common name, but since it is a common name the argument doesn't have much substance. On a brighter note, this has been very useful for me to share with some of my students as a great example of the challenges of common names. I used to just use the local example of going to a nursery and asking about a native plant called "spice bush," and how you had a one in three or one in four chance of getting the specific plant that you had in mind. But your web site pointing up all the Philodendrons, including both species and likely hybrids as well, that are potentially called 'Santa Leopoldina' has my spice bush example well trumped. Good Growing. Jonathan Interestingly, I have received far more response to my request for your input on the use of the term 'Santa Leopoldina' in personal email than an exchange of ideas on this board. I have gathered as much as possible and now posted it on a permanent page on the website. I also find it of interest that more than one person appears to feel I should just drop the subject and let the name 'Santa Leopoldina' be used for any plant in the jungle with a long blade. Certainly, I make no pretense to be the final authority. Anyone can call any plant by any name they choose. Several of us are just curious why so many growers and sellers use that name for so many different plants? And the list is still growing. I now have 12 plants on the page and there are more to be found on the internet. One writer pointed out since Graf's use of the term predates either Bette Waterbury or other more recent articles his plant should take precedence. Does that mean Philodendron spiritus-sancti should not be the rightful owner? I no longer have his books so I cannot personally comment. Again, I invite your comments and will post anyone's comment who grants permission. I ask you post them here so we all can read your opinions. Of course, if you'd rather send me a personal note, feel free. Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com http://www.exoticrainforest.com/what%20is%20it.html _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2007.02.22 at 17:26:50(15323) "well Graff called it such-and-such first, therefor this name is correct" are patently incorrect, but there are people who will never be convinced otherwise, let them be. Graff and Burley-Marx NEVER claimed to be Taxonomists, but they were fantastic collectors, growers and hobbyists, but no matter how huge a contribution they made to horticulture and popularizing plants, their names of plants often were just made-up ones FAR from the scientifically accurate ones we now are trying to stabilize. Good Growing, Julius Graff was a WONDERFUL MAN, and as far as I can tell, is probably the person most responsible for whatever rage there is in the collecting of rare and ungettable plants in the USA. I know EXOTICA was my introduction to this (at first) hobby, and later an obsession. However, Graff, when he came to our place, just wrote down whatever names we had, and sometimes we explained to him that the name was really only just the name it came with, and had not yet been verified or blessed with any official recognition. We got the idea he was most interested in getting out the WORD and the PHOTO, and was not a taxonomist at all, nor did he claim to be one. So when i was looking for a plant, i used to say, it is in EXOTICA on such and such and such a page and it is called "whatever it was called"....as likely as not we tracked down the plant without the proper name. this goes back over fifty years. I still have that EXOTICA, which is held together in places by DUCT TAPE. I think you Aroid people are doing very nicely in sorting out names, I have not seen death threats, nor mass exodus from the list, even when a name is being dissected and found wanting or absent. I only wish the target of my particular obsession....dare I say Sansevieria? which is in disarray....were being discussed as rationally. I have all but ordered my list to join this one, as a lesson in taxonomy protocol and also polite table manners when such matters are discussed. (my own aroid and fern collection is currently waiting for a real insulated greenhouse to re-emerge). this is the calmest way I can discuss what happens after two unusually cold winters harvest the cream out of a collection. cheers! hermine +More _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

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