colocasia non-tubers

From: Lester Kallus <lkallus at earthlink.net> on 1997.11.12 at 22:10:26(1610) It's that time of year and I'm digging up my colocasias and alocasias before the frost for a change. Usually I try to dig through frozen, thawed and now-mushed leaves to find tubers. Anyway, it makes me realize that there's a great variation in tuber formation in these plants. Perhaps the best example is the plain Colocasia esculenta. Some of these have the typical cone shaped tuber at the base of the stalk. This is even true for some of the smaller plants. Others look like roots coming out of the base of the petiole with no tuber at all. C. antiquorum illustris, C. fontanesii, C. "Burgandy stem" and C. "Blackie alias Black Magic alias Black leaf alias Voodoo alias whathaveyou" formed no tubers at all. They have roots coming out of what looks like the base of the massed petioles. So the question is: for those Colocasia that formed no tuber, is there a way to safely store them out of the soil over the winter? shall I just save several inches of "base of petioles" in vermiculite? I'd rather not have to purchase these over again and so will grow smaller pieces of them over the winter if I have to. With the limited space, though, I'd rather store them in a bag. I'd appreciate any help. Les

From: "Jean Carpenter" <backhoe at scan.missouri.org> on 1997.12.01 at 18:48:58(1674) I read your post but never did see an answer to your question regarding the tubers for your Colocasia esculenta. I, too, dug mine and have found the same roots coming from around the stem. If you don't mind, what answer did you get? I went ahead and dug mine and they are laying in my basement drying. I don't know if this is good or not. I garden in Southern Missouri, zone 6. My e-mail address is: backhoe@scan.missouri.org +More If you get time to answer me I'll appreciate it. Thanks, Jean

From: Lester Kallus <lkallus at earthlink.net> on 1997.12.01 at 21:46:58(1677) No responses yet. I recall have read a similar question once before and no one answered that one. Well perhaps you and I will be answering this for everyone else shortly. I've photographed all of my tubers and untubers but haven't gotten around to adding the images to my website yet. Next spring, I'll keep track of which ones sprout and which don't. I'll post results and perhaps that will answer our question. What I'd love to hear from the academicians here, though, is the purpose of the tuber if the "untubers" also germinate. Les +More At 12:50 PM 12/1/97 -0600, you wrote: >I read your post but never did see an answer to your question regarding the >tubers for your Colocasia esculenta. I, too, dug mine and have found the >same roots coming from around the stem. If you don't mind, what answer did >you get? I went ahead and dug mine and they are laying in my basement >drying. I don't know if this is good or not. I garden in Southern Missouri, >zone 6. My e-mail address is: >backhoe@scan.missouri.org >If you get time to answer me I'll appreciate it. Thanks, >Jean >

From: "Scott Lucas" <htbg at ilhawaii.net> on 1997.12.02 at 05:14:39(1681) Please repost the question regarding "Colocasia non-tubers." Taro is an important commercial crop here in Hawaii and I may be able to provide assistance. Unfortunately, I seem to have been sleeping at the gun as I missed the question when it was originally posted. Scott A. Lucas +More Hawaii Tropical Botanical Garden P.O. Box 80 Papaikou, HI 96781 htbg@ilhawaii.net -----Original Message----- To: htbg@ilhawaii.net Date: Monday, December 01, 1997 11:41 AM Subject: Re: colocasia non-tubers >No responses yet. I recall have read a similar question once before and no >one answered that one. Well perhaps you and I will be answering this for >everyone else shortly. I've photographed all of my tubers and untubers but >haven't gotten around to adding the images to my website yet. Next spring, >I'll keep track of which ones sprout and which don't. I'll post results >and perhaps that will answer our question. > >What I'd love to hear from the academicians here, though, is the purpose of >the tuber if the "untubers" also germinate. > Les > >At 12:50 PM 12/1/97 -0600, you wrote: >>I read your post but never did see an answer to your question regarding the >>tubers for your Colocasia esculenta. I, too, dug mine and have found the >>same roots coming from around the stem. If you don't mind, what answer did >>you get? I went ahead and dug mine and they are laying in my basement >>drying. I don't know if this is good or not. I garden in Southern Missouri, >>zone 6. My e-mail address is: >>backhoe@scan.missouri.org >>If you get time to answer me I'll appreciate it. Thanks, >>Jean >> > > > >

From: "Scott Lucas" <htbg at ilhawaii.net> on 1997.12.04 at 04:54:51(1700) Dear Clarence Hester: According to D.J. Mabberley's "The Plant Book" (an excellent reference that I highly recommend) the genus Colocasia is comprised of 8 species of tropical Asian TUBEROUS herbs with peltate leaves. Your Colocasia antiquorum is actually a variety of Colocasia esculenta and produces edible small tubers that are called eddoes. Also, your Colocasia fontanesii is properly a cultivar of Colocasia esculenta that was previously described as Colocasia violacea. With this in mind, I am highly suspicious that the reason you are not obtaining tubers on your various Colocasias is due to horticultural problems. Scott Lucas +More Hawaii Tropical Botanical Garden P.O. Box 80 Papaikou, HI 96781 htbg@ilhawaii.net -----Original Message----- To: htbg@ilhawaii.net Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 10:24 AM Subject: Re: colocasia non-tubers (repost of original) >In response to Lester Kallus's post, I can share similar experiences. >I, too, have never observed a corm development when digging up or >transplanting C. antiquorum illustris, C. fontanesii or the "whatever >you call it" solid black taro. On the other hand, the latter two have >been reliably ground hardy for me (zone 7b), while C. antiquorum >illustris has >survived in the ground, but with a diminished success rate. The one >time I tried to overwinter these in pots in a cool basement it did not >work as well as just leaving them in the ground. Also, storing bare >root was >a failure for me. > >Is it possible these plants develop corms under more favorable >conditions or with age? Is there such a thing as a "fleshy" corm? For >example, some Xanthosomas seem to have a turgid mass of tissue at the >base, but not always with a hard "corm". Similarly, I've overwintered >(bare root) an Ensete ventrosicum maurellii (Abyssinian Black Banana) >for several years now, and there's never been the typical, almost >"woody" banana corm--just a thick mass of fleshy, almost spongy >"plant-base". Nonetheless, it comes back year after year even after >months of dormancy. > >Clarence Hester > >

From: Clarence Hester <hesterc at niven.acpub.duke.edu> on 1997.12.04 at 14:33:32(1701) Scott Lucas wrote: > > Dear Clarence Hester: > > According to D.J. Mabberley's "The Plant Book" (an excellent reference that > I highly recommend) the genus Colocasia is comprised of 8 species of > tropical Asian TUBEROUS herbs with peltate leaves. Your Colocasia > antiquorum is actually a variety of Colocasia esculenta and produces edible > small tubers that are called eddoes. Also, your Colocasia fontanesii is > properly a cultivar of Colocasia esculenta that was previously described as > Colocasia violacea. With this in mind, I am highly suspicious that the > reason you are not obtaining tubers on your various Colocasias is due to > horticultural problems. +More Scott- I don't know if you read the earlier post from Lester Kallus, but my experience is not unique. As to "horticultural problems", this may be so, but it is not manifested in any other way with the plants. For example, I've actually had to rip C. fontanessi runners out of the ground as they spread prolifically and tend to pop up in all directions. Also, my C. fontanessi always produces many fragrant blooms during the summer season. To all appearances, there is not a "horticultural problem" that I have observed. In addition, the plants come back year after year, so there's something viable living below the ground. It just never takes the form of the typical "corm" found, for example, when one digs up C. esculenta. As for C. fontanesii being a cultivar of C. esculenta, maybe so, but there appear to be huge differences in the growth habits of these two plants. C. fontanessi appears to propogate itself but sending out runners some distance from the parent plant. Also, C. fontanesii does well as an aquatic. I don't know that this is true of C. esculenta. Have you any direct experience growing these plants? If so, have you obsserved corm development in C. fontanesii? I think that's the real question being asked. I learned a long time ago to take anything written in garden books with a huge grain of salt. Thanks, Clarence

From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at classic.msn.com> on 1997.12.04 at 14:41:34(1702) ---------- Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 11:54 PM To: ju-bo@msn.com +More Subject: Re: colocasia non-tubers >>Dear Clarence Hester: According to D.J. Mabberley's "The Plant Book" (an excellent reference that I highly recommend) the genus Colocasia is comprised of 8 species of tropical Asian TUBEROUS herbs with peltate leaves. Your Colocasia antiquorum is actually a variety of Colocasia esculenta and produces edible small tubers that are called eddoes. Also, your Colocasia fontanesii is properly a cultivar of Colocasia esculenta that was previously described as Colocasia violacea. With this in mind, I am highly suspicious that the reason you are not obtaining tubers on your various Colocasias is due to horticultural problems. Scott Lucas Hawaii Tropical Botanical Garden P.O. Box 80 Papaikou, HI 96781 htbg@ilhawaii.net<< Dear All, I have resisted getting in on this one, but it has occured to me that perhaps the length of your growing season for these normally tuberous plants is too short. Perhaps you could try starting them earlier under lights and heat, which just may give them enough time to grow, then before it begins to go cool, you slow down on the water, (which fools the plants into "thinking" that the dry season is here) at which point they should and normally will produce a tuber of tubers BUT OVER A PERIOD OF A COUPLE MONTHS ! !. I think that we are asking too much of a tropical plant that takes a full year (or more in many cases) to complete its cycle of growth, sometimes flowering, THEN a slow tuber production in preparation for an extended dry dormancy, to do it all in the few normally warmish months provided by mother nature in northern climes. Try some indoor lights/heat and see what happens. Also, I believe that Colocasia is grown in the Carolinas for the tubers, as I saw an article on the coastal people (the Gullas?) and I believe that there was a photo of the plants. This was in National Geographic a couple of years ago. Maybe a member or lurker in this district could ask around and fill us in on the growth cycle/ times in this area??? Cheers and good growing. Julius ju-bo@msn.com -----Original Message----- To: htbg@ilhawaii.net Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 10:24 AM Subject: Re: colocasia non-tubers (repost of original) >In response to Lester Kallus's post, I can share similar experiences. >I, too, have never observed a corm development when digging up or >transplanting C. antiquorum illustris, C. fontanesii or the "whatever >you call it" solid black taro. On the other hand, the latter two have >been reliably ground hardy for me (zone 7b), while C. antiquorum >illustris has >survived in the ground, but with a diminished success rate. The one >time I tried to overwinter these in pots in a cool basement it did not >work as well as just leaving them in the ground. Also, storing bare >root was >a failure for me. > >Is it possible these plants develop corms under more favorable >conditions or with age? Is there such a thing as a "fleshy" corm? For >example, some Xanthosomas seem to have a turgid mass of tissue at the >base, but not always with a hard "corm". Similarly, I've overwintered >(bare root) an Ensete ventrosicum maurellii (Abyssinian Black Banana) >for several years now, and there's never been the typical, almost >"woody" banana corm--just a thick mass of fleshy, almost spongy >"plant-base". Nonetheless, it comes back year after year even after >months of dormancy. > >Clarence Hester > >

From: Tony Avent <tony at plantdel.com> on 1997.12.04 at 15:08:03(1703) Dear Scott: I have also seen the colocasia references that you mention in Mabberly. I would love to hear more regarding the classification of Colocasia antiquorum and C. fontanesii as C. esculenta. Having grown all three, the growth habit is entirely different on all three. C. esculenta forms large tubers and is a clump former. C. fontanesia runs vigorously above ground and forms a semi-tuber, while C. antiquorum runs below ground and forms no tubers, but a thickened rhizome. Any more insight into how and why these were classified as forms of C. esculenta would be appreciated. Tony Avent +More Plant Delights Nursery 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, NC 27603 USA ph 919 772-4794 fx 919 662-0370 email tony@plantdel.com USDA zone 7, 0F-100F "I Consider Every Plant Hardy Until I Have Killed It Myself...Three Times" - Avent

From: "Scott Lucas" <htbg at ilhawaii.net> on 1997.12.04 at 19:15:20(1705) Dear Clarence Hester and Tony Avent: Colocasia esculenta is an extremely variable species. In Hawaii, where it probably reached its maximum variation, more than 400 cultivars were grown. Today about 80 of these remain. Cultivar proliferation occured due to microclimate variation and they can be separated into two basic categories: dry land taro and wet land taro. Wet land taro is cultivated in flooded ponds much the way rice is cultivated. Arum esculentum L. Sp. Pl. 965. 1753. is apparently typified by the illustration of Arum minus, nymphaea folio, esculentum Sloan (Voy. Jam. Nat. Hist. 1: 167. 1707, 2: t. 106, fig. 1. 1725), although actual specimens seen by Linnaeus before 1753 may exist in the Sloan or Clifford Herbaria (BM). Linnaeus apparently regarded this taxon as an American species. It is probable that it was introduced to the New World after 1492, probably for consumption by African slaves. Arum colocasia L. Sp. Pl. 965. 1753. and its homotypic synonyms, including Colocasia antiquorum (of the ancients), can be typified by a single leaf specimen in the Linnaen Society of London herbarium, marked with a symbol for "Central Asia," although Linnaeus published the habitat as "Cretae, Cypri, Syriae, Aegypti aquosis." there is some question of the place of first valid publication of Colocasia antiquorum var. esculenta Schott ex Seem. It is commonly attributed to Schott (Syn. Aroid. 42. 1856, or Prodr. Syst. Aroid. 140. 1860), but I do not believe that the (1) listing of Colocasia esculenta as a synonym of C. antiquorum and (2) a statement that "C. esculenta = C. antiq. S. var." constitute definite indication that the "epithets concerned are to be used in that particular combination," as required by Art. 33, ICBN. A parallel example "of combinations not definitely indicated" is given (Art. 33), "The combination Eulophus peucedanoides must not be ascribed to Bentham on the basis of the listing of Cnidum Peucedanoides H.B.K. under Eulophus." Apparently Seemann was the first actually make the combination. +More >From Alocasia, which is very closely related, Colocasia differs in techinical details of the ovaries and their arrangement. From the typical Colocasia esculentum, the variety antiquorum (syn. C. antiquorum), known as Egyptian taro, differs in the flowerless portion of the spadix being at least as long as the part occupied by the male and sterile flowers, and in the spathes being inrolled instead of opening widely. The tubers of this variety, inferior to those of var. esculentum, are used as food in Egypt. Elephant's ears commonly grown as ornamentals include Colocasia esculentum var. euchlora, which has leaves with purplish stalks and dark green blades with violet margins. Colocasia esculentum fontanesii is triploid and has larger purple veined leaves. Colocasia esculentum illustris, called the black-caladium or imperial taro, has large leaves that are purplish blace to nearly black between the green veins. And, yes, Colocasia esculentum fontanesii DOES form tubers. I do believe the Julius Boos contribution to this discussion has considerable merit with regard to possible reasons why you are not obtaining tuber production. In addition to getting them started very early indoors, with good bright light and warm temperatures (i.e. > 70F at all times), I also suggest application of fertilizer that would encourage tuber production. If growing the plants aquatically, I have found making golf ball sized packets of a slow release fertilizer such as Osmocote wrapped and tied in cheese cloth works very satisfactorily. Push the cheese cloth balls into the mud a few inches from the base of the plant. Hope this is of some help. Scott A. Lucas Hawaii Tropical Botanical Garden P.O. Box 80 Papaikou, HI 96781 htbg@ilhawaii.net -----Original Message----- To: htbg@ilhawaii.net Date: Thursday, December 04, 1997 4:28 AM Subject: Re: colocasia non-tubers >Scott Lucas wrote: >> >> Dear Clarence Hester: >> >> According to D.J. Mabberley's "The Plant Book" (an excellent reference that >> I highly recommend) the genus Colocasia is comprised of 8 species of >> tropical Asian TUBEROUS herbs with peltate leaves. Your Colocasia >> antiquorum is actually a variety of Colocasia esculenta and produces edible >> small tubers that are called eddoes. Also, your Colocasia fontanesii is >> properly a cultivar of Colocasia esculenta that was previously described as >> Colocasia violacea. With this in mind, I am highly suspicious that the >> reason you are not obtaining tubers on your various Colocasias is due to >> horticultural problems. > >Scott- > >I don't know if you read the earlier post from Lester Kallus, but my >experience is not unique. As to "horticultural problems", this may be >so, but it is not manifested in any other way with the plants. For >example, I've actually had to rip C. fontanessi runners out of the >ground as they spread prolifically and tend to pop up in all >directions. Also, my C. fontanessi always produces many fragrant blooms >during the >summer season. To all appearances, there is not a "horticultural >problem" that I have observed. In addition, the plants come back year >after year, so there's something viable living below the ground. It just >never takes the form of the typical "corm" found, for example, when one >digs up C. esculenta. > >As for C. fontanesii being a cultivar of C. esculenta, maybe so, but >there appear to be huge differences >in the growth habits of these two plants. C. fontanessi appears to >propogate itself but sending out >runners some distance from the parent plant. Also, C. fontanesii does >well as an aquatic. I don't >know that this is true of C. esculenta. > >Have you any direct experience growing these plants? If so, have you >obsserved corm development in >C. fontanesii? I think that's the real question being asked. I learned >a long time ago to take anything written in garden books with a huge >grain of salt. > >Thanks, > >Clarence > >

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