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This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.
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Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.11.14 at 06:37:14(20272)
This one is going to be long guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or expertson this forum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can'tseem to reach a resolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of theworld. It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actualparentage has been debated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasiawatsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilishave produced similar results. Other sources have stated otherparentage is involved so I'm not sure what the real parentage may havebeen, I only know it did not come from nature.
The plant issometimes known by the common names African Mask, Green Velvet, JewelAlocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercial growershave sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if youdo an internet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticut and the USDA list the plant asAlocasia x Amazonica André. Unless I've got my facts totally wrong "André" refers tobotanist AndréMichauxwho lived from 1746 to 1802.
Since Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and at least the plantweknow by the name Alocasia Amazonica today wasn't even hybridized untilthe 1930's are they talking about the same plant? How could it be thesame hybrid if botanist AndréMichaux wrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally diginto this kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is notfrom the Amazon. The name should never be used in either theitalicized form or with single quotations since it is neither apublished species nor a registered cultivar. With the help of JohnBanta our friend author and expert Julius Boos was able to trace thehybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and 1940's owned a nowdefunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the "AmazonNursery" and the grower is said to have named Alocasia Amazonica afterhis own business. The name has since been used by growers for over 70years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasia species are allnaturally found in the geographical region composed of Southeast Asiaand neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including thePhilippines. No Alocasia species has ever been found naturallyin Central or South America including the Amazon basin although specieshave been imported as well as set free and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is aspecies here are three scientific data bases. You won't find AlocasiaAmazonica on any.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/ WorldChecklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to André. Some experts believe the plant did notoriginate in Miami and likely was originally bred in Belgium, France orEngland since it is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. Idon't have access to that publication so I can't check out thesources. If it was hybridized in Europe, who did it? When? Was AndréMichaux involved? Did he write about it? If so, where are his papersand more importantly, is it the same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridizedbefore 1800 in England, France or Belgium that also used the nameAlocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanistsbut this one has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, sinceyou are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd really like tounderstand where the name originated and if we are talking about thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
| HTML +More | |
www.ExoticRainforest.com
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From: "Famille FERRY" <jpcferry2 at wanadoo.fr> on 2009.11.15 at 10:22:11(20279)
Dear Steve,
I do not master the English and I do not fully understand your message.
We speak whith French ? Edouard Andr or Andr Michaux?
I took the opportunity to recall that Anthurium andraeanum is dedicated to Edouard Andr. It is her friend Linden who has dedicated this species.
Andr is the official name of the french botanist douard Andr (1840- 1911).
Andr Michaux, born March 7, 1746 in Versailles, died October 11, 1802 in Tamatave (Madagascar), was a botanist and explorer French.
It is very interesting to understand the origin of names.
Steve thank you very much for your detective work. It is exciting.
Best regards ,
Genevive
| HTML +More | |
----- Original Message -----
From: ExoticRainforest
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:37 AM
Subject: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
This one is going to be long guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or experts on this forum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can't seem to reach a resolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straight from the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica for sale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of the world. It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actual parentage has been debated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crosses including Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis have produced similar results. Other sources have stated other parentage is involved so I'm not sure what the real parentage may have been, I only know it did not come from nature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, Green Velvet, Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercial growers have sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if you do an internet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticut and the USDA list the plant as Alocasia x Amazonica Andr. Unless I've got my facts totally wrong "Andr" refers to botanist Andr Michaux who lived from 1746 to 1802.
Since Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and at least the plant we know by the name Alocasia Amazonica today wasn't even hybridized until the 1930's are they talking about the same plant? How could it be the same hybrid if botanist Andr Michaux wrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally dig into this kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described to science It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is not from the Amazon. The name should never be used in either the italicized form or with single quotations since it is neither a published species nor a registered cultivar. With the help of John Banta our friend author and expert Julius Boos was able to trace the hybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and 1940's owned a now defunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the "Amazon Nursery" and the grower is said to have named Alocasia Amazonica after his own business. The name has since been used by growers for over 70 years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasia species are all naturally found in the geographical region composed of Southeast Asia and neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including the Philippines. No Alocasia species has ever been found naturally in Central or South America including the Amazon basin although species have been imported as well as set free and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is a species here are three scientific data bases. You won't find Alocasia Amazonica on any.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.html The Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/ World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to Andr. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miami and likely was originally bred in Belgium, France or England since it is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have access to that publication so I can't check out the sources. If it was hybridized in Europe, who did it? When? Was Andr Michaux involved? Did he write about it? If so, where are his papers and more importantly, is it the same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridized before 1800 in England, France or Belgium that also used the name Alocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius, Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanists but this one has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, since you are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd really like to understand where the name originated and if we are talking about the same plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: "John Criswick" <criswick at spiceisle.com> on 2009.11.15 at 13:24:51(20280)
Steve, it might beworth investigating the grower whose surname is Andre, who exported Cordylinesfrom Trinidad in the early 20th centuryand possibly late 19th. I believe that the species Anthuriumandreanum was named after him. There is a cordyline cv. named Madame EugenieAndre, who I believe was his wife. I have it in fact. Unfortunately I can’tremember Andre’s first name. Somewhere I have a copy of a magazinepublished by the Trinidad and Tobago Horticultural Society in whichthere is an article on Andre. I seem to think that he also grew anthuriums himselfand this was probably the common pink “West Indian” cv. of A.andreanum, which has almost disappeared now.
So here could be yourmysterious Andre ! Obviously a person’s first name is not usually usedin creating botanical names, so if Andre Michaux was involved, the name wouldbe Alocasia x Amazonica Michaux.
Quite possibly Andrewas Belgian, or if not, French.
If this is the correctAndre, it would bring the whole thing forward by a century. I don’t knowif Andre was still around in the 1930s when Alocasia x amazonica was hybridized.
Julius might be ableto help here, as his brother Hans in Trinidadmight have more information.
John. | HTML +More | |
From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] OnBehalf Of ExoticRainforest
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 20091:37 AM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: [Aroid-l] AlocasiaAmazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
This one is going to belong guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growingthis plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or experts on thisforum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can't seem to reach aresolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of the world.It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actual parentage has beendebated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis have produced similarresults. Other sources have stated other parentage is involved so I'm not surewhat the real parentage may have been, I only know it did not come fromnature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, Green Velvet,Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercial growershave sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if you do aninternet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticutand the USDA list the plant asAlocasia x Amazonica Andr. Unless I've got my facts totallywrong "Andr" refers to botanist Andr Michaux who lived from 1746 to1802.
Since AlocasiaAmazonica is not a species and at least the plant we know by the name AlocasiaAmazonica today wasn't even hybridized until the 1930's are they talking aboutthe same plant? How could it be the same hybrid if botanist Andr Michauxwrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally dig intothis kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is not fromthe Amazon. The name should never be used in either the italicized formor with single quotations since it is neither a published species nor aregistered cultivar. With the help of John Banta our friend author and expertJulius Boos was able to trace the hybrid to a nursery owner who during the1930's and 1940's owned a now defunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the"Amazon Nursery" and the grower is said to have named AlocasiaAmazonica after his own business. The name has since been used by growers forover 70 years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasiaspecies are all naturally found in the geographical region composed ofSoutheast Asia and neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean includingthe Philippines.No Alocasia species has ever beenfound naturally in Central or South Americaincluding the Amazon basin although species have been imported as well as setfree and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is a species hereare three scientific data bases. You won't find Alocasia Amazonica onany.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London:http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/ World Checklist of Selected PlantFamilies: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to Andr. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miamiand likely was originally bred in Belgium,France or England sinceit is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have access tothat publication so I can't check out the sources. If it was hybridizedin Europe, who did it? When? Was Andr Michaux involved? Did hewrite about it? If so, where are his papers and more importantly, is itthe same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridized before1800 in England, France or Belgiumthat also used the name Alocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanists but thisone has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, since you are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd reallylike to understand where the name originated and if we are talking about thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01CA65CD.1C7B8AC0----==============98950976981291924= |
|
From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.11.15 at 14:18:25(20284)
I've been told my "database" ofbotanists may have given me the wrong name. Thereare apparently two French botanists known as André, Edouard F André(1840-1911) and his son René Edouard André(1867-1942).
Can anyone confirm if one of these is the André in question?
Steve
| HTML +More |
ExoticRainforest wrote:
Thisone is going to be long guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or expertson this forum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can'tseem to reach a resolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of theworld. It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actualparentage has been debated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasiawatsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilishave produced similar results. Other sources have stated otherparentage is involved so I'm not sure what the real parentage may havebeen, I only know it did not come from nature.
The plant issometimes known by the common names African Mask, Green Velvet, JewelAlocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercial growershave sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if youdo an internet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticut and the USDA list the plant asAlocasia x Amazonica André. Unless I've got my facts totally wrong "André" refers tobotanist André Michauxwho lived from 1746 to 1802.
Since Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and at least theplantweknow by the name Alocasia Amazonica today wasn't even hybridized untilthe 1930's are they talking about the same plant? How could it be thesame hybrid if botanist AndréMichaux wrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally diginto this kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is notfrom the Amazon. The name should never be used in either theitalicized form or with single quotations since it is neither apublished species nor a registered cultivar. With the help of JohnBanta our friend author and expert Julius Boos was able to trace thehybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and 1940's owned a nowdefunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the "AmazonNursery" and the grower is said to have named Alocasia Amazonica afterhis own business. The name has since been used by growers for over 70years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasia species are allnaturally found in the geographical region composed of Southeast Asiaand neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including thePhilippines. No Alocasia species has ever been found naturallyin Central or South America including the Amazon basin although specieshave been imported as well as set free and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is aspecies here are three scientific data bases. You won't find AlocasiaAmazonica on any.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/WorldChecklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to André. Some experts believe the plant did notoriginate in Miami and likely was originally bred in Belgium, France orEngland since it is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. Idon't have access to that publication so I can't check out thesources. If it was hybridized in Europe, who did it? When? Was AndréMichaux involved? Did he write about it? If so, where are his papersand more importantly, is it the same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridizedbefore 1800 in England, France or Belgium that also used the nameAlocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanistsbut this one has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, sinceyou are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd really like tounderstand where the name originated and if we are talking about thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
--------------030209090909020907060905 |
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From: "Marek Argent" <abri1973 at wp.pl> on 2009.11.15 at 16:30:52(20285)
Hi Steve,
I will add other probable parents of A. amazonica = (A. longiloba 'Lowii' A. sanderiana).
Its leaf margins are undulate, while in A. longiloba they are entire and A. sanderiana has deep lobes.
Alocasia 'Polly' is a newer cultivar, it is more robust, and the leaf venation is thicker.
Alocasia 'Frydek' or 'Freydyk' or 'Maxkowskii' are probably cultivars or hybrids of A. micholitziana, their leaves are velvety.
I'm sending you links to photos of these plants, not to pages.
My pages about these plants were made 6-7 years ago,
and there are a lot of errors in the descriptions. The photos are identified correctly.
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/amaz.jpg amazonica
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/polly1.jpg 'Polly'
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/grnlf1.jpg micholitziana 'Maxkowskii'
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/lowii2.jpg longiloba 'Lowii'
Being regarded as a hybrid species, the name "amazonica" should be italicized:
Alocasia amazonica hort.
If something changed recently (during 5-6 years), please don't kill me for false info.
Best,
Marek
| HTML +More | |
----- Original Message -----
From: ExoticRainforest
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:37 AM
Subject: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
This one is going to be long guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or experts on this forum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can't seem to reach a resolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straight from the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica for sale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of the world. It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actual parentage has been debated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crosses including Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis have produced similar results. Other sources have stated other parentage is involved so I'm not sure what the real parentage may have been, I only know it did not come from nature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, Green Velvet, Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercial growers have sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if you do an internet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticut and the USDA list the plant as Alocasia x Amazonica Andr. Unless I've got my facts totally wrong "Andr" refers to botanist Andr Michaux who lived from 1746 to 1802.
Since Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and at least the plant we know by the name Alocasia Amazonica today wasn't even hybridized until the 1930's are they talking about the same plant? How could it be the same hybrid if botanist Andr Michaux wrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally dig into this kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described to science It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is not from the Amazon. The name should never be used in either the italicized form or with single quotations since it is neither a published species nor a registered cultivar. With the help of John Banta our friend author and expert Julius Boos was able to trace the hybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and 1940's owned a now defunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the "Amazon Nursery" and the grower is said to have named Alocasia Amazonica after his own business. The name has since been used by growers for over 70 years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasia species are all naturally found in the geographical region composed of Southeast Asia and neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including the Philippines. No Alocasia species has ever been found naturally in Central or South America including the Amazon basin although species have been imported as well as set free and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is a species here are three scientific data bases. You won't find Alocasia Amazonica on any.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.html The Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/ World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to Andr. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miami and likely was originally bred in Belgium, France or England since it is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have access to that publication so I can't check out the sources. If it was hybridized in Europe, who did it? When? Was Andr Michaux involved? Did he write about it? If so, where are his papers and more importantly, is it the same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridized before 1800 in England, France or Belgium that also used the name Alocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius, Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanists but this one has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, since you are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd really like to understand where the name originated and if we are talking about the same plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: "Famille FERRY" <jpcferry2 at wanadoo.fr> on 2009.11.15 at 17:21:36(20286)
Dear Steve,
It is Edouard F. Andr (1840 - 1911). He is a contemporary of Linden
(1817-1898).
| HTML +More | |
Look your site :Anthurium crystallinum Linden and Andr, found in Colombia, Panama, Anthurium crystallinum and other exotic and rare tropical plants from the rainforest.
The best ,
Genevive
----- Original Message -----
From: ExoticRainforest
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
I've been told my "database" of botanists may have given me the wrong name. There are apparently two French botanists known as Andr, Edouard F Andr (1840-1911) and his son Ren Edouard Andr (1867-1942).
Can anyone confirm if one of these is the Andr in question?
Steve
ExoticRainforest wrote:
This one is going to be long guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or experts on this forum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can't seem to reach a resolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straight from the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica for sale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of the world. It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actual parentage has been debated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crosses including Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis have produced similar results. Other sources have stated other parentage is involved so I'm not sure what the real parentage may have been, I only know it did not come from nature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, Green Velvet, Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercial growers have sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if you do an internet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticut and the USDA list the plant as Alocasia x Amazonica Andr. Unless I've got my facts totally wrong "Andr" refers to botanist Andr Michaux who lived from 1746 to 1802.
Since Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and at least the plant we know by the name Alocasia Amazonica today wasn't even hybridized until the 1930's are they talking about the same plant? How could it be the same hybrid if botanist Andr Michaux wrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally dig into this kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described to science It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is not from the Amazon. The name should never be used in either the italicized form or with single quotations since it is neither a published species nor a registered cultivar. With the help of John Banta our friend author and expert Julius Boos was able to trace the hybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and 1940's owned a now defunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the "Amazon Nursery" and the grower is said to have named Alocasia Amazonica after his own business. The name has since been used by growers for over 70 years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasia species are all naturally found in the geographical region composed of Southeast Asia and neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including the Philippines. No Alocasia species has ever been found naturally in Central or South America including the Amazon basin although species have been imported as well as set free and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is a species here are three scientific data bases. You won't find Alocasia Amazonica on any.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.html The Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/ World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to Andr. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miami and likely was originally bred in Belgium, France or England since it is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have access to that publication so I can't check out the sources. If it was hybridized in Europe, who did it? When? Was Andr Michaux involved? Did he write about it? If so, where are his papers and more importantly, is it the same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridized before 1800 in England, France or Belgium that also used the name Alocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius, Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanists but this one has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, since you are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd really like to understand where the name originated and if we are talking about the same plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: "John Criswick" <criswick at spiceisle.com> on 2009.11.15 at 18:32:49(20288)
Now it gets even more interesting! Edouard’s son Rene could well be the man who owned a plantation inTrinidad, and his dates do not rule him out as having some connection with Alocasia x amazonica hort., although if sohe would have to have had some connection with the owner of Amazon Nursery inMiami.
John.
From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] OnBehalf Of ExoticRainforest
| HTML +More |
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 20099:18 AM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] AlocasiaAmazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
I've been told my "database" of botanistsmay have given me the wrong name. There are apparently two French botanists known asAndr, Edouard F Andr (1840-1911) and his son Ren Edouard Andr (1867-1942).
Can anyone confirm if one of these is the Andr inquestion?
Steve
ExoticRainforest wrote:
This one is going to be long guys and gals so pleasestay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find thisinteresting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or experts on thisforum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can't seem to reach aresolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of the world.It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actual parentage has beendebated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis have produced similarresults. Other sources have stated other parentage is involved so I'm not surewhat the real parentage may have been, I only know it did not come fromnature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, Green Velvet,Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercial growershave sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if you do aninternet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticutand the USDA list the plant asAlocasia x Amazonica Andr. Unless I've got my facts totallywrong "Andr" refers to botanist Andr Michaux who lived from 1746 to1802.
Since AlocasiaAmazonica is not a species and at least the plant we know by the name AlocasiaAmazonica today wasn't even hybridized until the 1930's are they talking aboutthe same plant? How could it be the same hybrid if botanist Andr Michauxwrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally dig intothis kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is not fromthe Amazon. The name should never be used in either the italicized formor with single quotations since it is neither a published species nor a registeredcultivar. With the help of John Banta our friend author and expert Julius Booswas able to trace the hybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and1940's owned a now defunct nursery in the Miami.The nursery was known as the "Amazon Nursery" and the grower is saidto have named Alocasia Amazonica after his own business. The name has sincebeen used by growers for over 70 years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasiaspecies are all naturally found in the geographical region composed of SoutheastAsia and neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including the Philippines. NoAlocasia species has ever beenfound naturally in Central or South Americaincluding the Amazon basin although species have been imported as well as setfree and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is a species hereare three scientific data bases. You won't find Alocasia Amazonica onany.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London:http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/ WorldChecklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to Andr. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miamiand likely was originally bred in Belgium,France or England sinceit is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have access tothat publication so I can't check out the sources. If it was hybridizedin Europe, who did it? When? Was Andr Michaux involved? Did hewrite about it? If so, where are his papers and more importantly, is itthe same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridized before1800 in England, France or Belgiumthat also used the name Alocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanists but thisone has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, since you are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd reallylike to understand where the name originated and if we are talking about thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.11.15 at 20:33:47(20292)
If anyone gets "killed" it willlikely be me for stirring up another hornet's nest! I believe you arelikely correct on these but would really like to hear from some of thefolks that have a serious understanding of how all this came to be,especially the notation on the Belgium garden site.
Steve
| HTML +More | |
Marek Argent wrote:
Hi Steve,
I will add other probable parents of A. × amazonica = (A. longiloba 'Lowii' × A. sanderiana).
Its leaf margins are undulate, whilein A. longiloba they are entire and A. sanderianahas deep lobes.
Alocasia 'Polly' is a newercultivar, it is more robust, and the leaf venation is thicker.
Alocasia 'Frydek' or'Freydyk' or 'Maxkowskii' are probably cultivars or hybrids of A.micholitziana, their leaves are velvety.
I'm sending you links to photos ofthese plants, not to pages.
My pages about these plants weremade 6-7 years ago,
and there are a lot of errors in thedescriptions. The photos are identified correctly.
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/amaz.jpg× amazonica
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/polly1.jpg 'Polly'
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/grnlf1.jpg micholitziana'Maxkowskii'
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/lowii2.jpg longiloba'Lowii'
Being regarded as a hybridspecies, the name "amazonica" should be italicized:
Alocasia × amazonicahort.
If something changed recently(during 5-6 years), please don't kill me for false info.
Best,
Marek
-----Original Message -----
From: ExoticRainforest
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent:Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:37 AM
Subject:[Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
This one is going to be long guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or expertson this forum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can'tseem to reach a resolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of theworld. It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actualparentage has been debated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasiawatsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis haveproduced similar results. Other sources have stated other parentage isinvolved so I'm not sure what the real parentage may have been, I onlyknow it did not come from nature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, GreenVelvet, Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator andcommercial growers have sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as AlocasiaMaxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if youdo an internet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticut and the USDA list the plant asAlocasia x Amazonica André. Unless I've got my facts totally wrong"André" refers to botanist André Michaux who lived from 1746 to 1802.
Since Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and at least theplant we know by the name Alocasia Amazonica today wasn't evenhybridized until the 1930's are they talking about the same plant? Howcould it be the same hybrid if botanist André Michaux wrote about itbefore his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally diginto this kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is notfrom the Amazon. The name should never be used in either theitalicized form or with single quotations since it is neither apublished species nor a registered cultivar. With the help of JohnBanta our friend author and expert Julius Boos was able to trace thehybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and 1940's owned a nowdefunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the "AmazonNursery" and the grower is said to have named Alocasia Amazonica afterhis own business. The name has since been used by growers for over 70years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasia species are allnaturally found in the geographical region composed of Southeast Asiaand neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including thePhilippines. No Alocasia species has ever been found naturallyin Central or South America including the Amazon basin although specieshave been imported as well as set free and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is aspecies here are three scientific data bases. You won't find AlocasiaAmazonica on any.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to André. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miami and likelywas originally bred in Belgium, France or England since it is mentionedin Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have access to thatpublication so I can't check out the sources. If it was hybridized inEurope, who did it? When? Was AndréMichaux involved? Did he write about it? If so, where are his papersand more importantly, is it the same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridizedbefore 1800 in England, France or Belgium that also used the nameAlocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanistsbut this one has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, sinceyou are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd really like tounderstand where the name originated and if we are talking about thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2009.11.15 at 20:39:34(20293)
Could be John. There is also André,Edouard F André(1840-1911) and his son René Edouard André(1867-1942). It appears the former is the one that gets the creditusing the name André but I need some further verificationto be certain.
Steve
| HTML +More | |
John Criswick wrote:
Steve, itmight beworth investigating the grower whose surname is Andre, who exportedCordylinesfrom Trinidad in the early 20thcenturyand possibly late 19th. I believe that the species Anthuriumandreanum was named after him. There is a cordyline cv. named MadameEugenieAndre, who I believe was his wife. I have it in fact. Unfortunately Ican’tremember Andre’s first name. Somewhere I have a copy of a magazinepublished by the Trinidadand Tobago Horticultural Society inwhichthere is an article on Andre. I seem to think that he also grewanthuriums himselfand this was probably the common pink “West Indian” cv. of A.andreanum, which has almost disappeared now.
So herecould be yourmysterious Andre ! Obviously a person’s first name is not usuallyusedin creating botanical names, so if Andre Michaux was involved, the namewouldbe Alocasia x Amazonica Michaux.
Quitepossibly Andrewas Belgian, or if not, French.
If thisis the correctAndre, it would bring the whole thing forward by a century. I don’tknowif Andre was still around in the 1930s when Alocasia x amazonica washybridized.
Juliusmight be ableto help here, as his brother Hans in Trinidadmight have more information.
John.
From:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] OnBehalf Of ExoticRainforest
Sent: Saturday,November 14, 20091:37 AM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: [Aroid-l]AlocasiaAmazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
Thisone is going to belong guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you aregrowingthis plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or expertson thisforum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can't seem toreach aresolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of theworld.It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actual parentagehas beendebated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but othercrossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis haveproduced similarresults. Other sources have stated other parentage is involved so I'mnot surewhat the real parentage may have been, I only know it did not come fromnature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, GreenVelvet,Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercialgrowershave sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if youdo aninternet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plussome "official" sources including the University of Connecticutand the USDA listthe plant asAlocasia x Amazonica André. Unless I've got my facts totallywrong "André" refers to botanist André Michaux who lived from 1746 to1802.
SinceAlocasiaAmazonica is not a species and at least the plant we know by the nameAlocasiaAmazonica today wasn't even hybridized until the 1930's are theytalking aboutthe same plant? How could it be the same hybrid if botanist AndréMichauxwrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally digintothis kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is notfromthe Amazon. The name should never be used in either the italicizedformor with single quotations since it is neither a published species nor aregistered cultivar. With the help of John Banta our friend author andexpertJulius Boos was able to trace the hybrid to a nursery owner who duringthe1930's and 1940's owned a now defunct nursery in the Miami. Thenursery was known as the"Amazon Nursery" and the grower is said to have named AlocasiaAmazonica after his own business. The name has since been used bygrowers forover 70 years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasiaspecies are all naturally found in the geographical region composed ofSoutheast Asia and neighboring island nations of the Pacific Oceanincludingthe Philippines.No Alocasia specieshas ever beenfound naturally in Central or South Americaincluding the Amazon basin although species have been imported as wellas setfree and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is aspecies hereare three scientific data bases. You won't find Alocasia Amazonica onany.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/World Checklist of Selected PlantFamilies: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to André. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miamiand likely was originally bred in Belgium, France or Englandsinceit is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have accesstothat publication so I can't check out the sources. If it washybridizedin Europe, who did it? When? Was André Michauxinvolved? Did hewrite about it? If so, where are his papers and more importantly, isitthe same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridizedbefore1800 in England, France or Belgiumthat also used the name Alocasia x Amazonica which was copied by thegrower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanistsbut thisone has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, since you are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'dreallylike to understand where the name originated and if we are talkingabout thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
--------------060109060009040509020504 |
|
From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.11.15 at 20:44:47(20294)
Thanks Geneviève! This helps me tounderstand more of what I've been trying to learn. My question nowwould be how did ÉdouardAndré write about a hybrid plant that in theory didn't exist at thetime he died? Had someone already done the cross much earlier? Are wetalking about the same cross?
Anyone??
Steve
| HTML +More | |
Famille FERRY wrote:
Dear Steve,
I do not master the English and I do not fully understand your message.
We speak whith French ? Edouard André or André Michaux?
I took the opportunity to recall thatAnthurium andraeanum is dedicated to Edouard André. It is her friendLinden who has dedicated this species.
André is the official name of the french botanist Édouard André (1840- 1911).
André Michaux, born March7, 1746 in Versailles, died October 11, 1802 in Tamatave (Madagascar),was a botanist and explorer French.
It is very interesting to understand theorigin of names.
Steve thank you very much for your detective work. It is exciting.
Best regards ,
Geneviève
id-l
--------------010704020706030105050202 |
|
From: "Tom Croat" <Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2009.11.16 at 23:56:18(20302)
Steve:
I am pretty sure that it was EFAndre who did most of the collecting and botany work that we know of.
Tom
| HTML +More |
From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] OnBehalf Of ExoticRainforest
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 20098:18 AM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] AlocasiaAmazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
I've been told my "database" of botanistsmay have given me the wrong name. There are apparently two French botanists known asAndr, Edouard F Andr (1840-1911) and his son Ren Edouard Andr (1867-1942).
Can anyone confirm if one of these is the Andr inquestion?
Steve
ExoticRainforest wrote:
This one is going to be long guys and gals so pleasestay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find thisinteresting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or experts on thisforum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can't seem to reach aresolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of the world.It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actual parentage has beendebated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis have produced similarresults. Other sources have stated other parentage is involved so I'm not surewhat the real parentage may have been, I only know it did not come fromnature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, Green Velvet,Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator and commercial growershave sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as Alocasia Maxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if you do aninternet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticutand the USDA list the plant asAlocasia x Amazonica Andr. Unless I've got my facts totallywrong "Andr" refers to botanist Andr Michaux who lived from 1746 to1802.
Since AlocasiaAmazonica is not a species and at least the plant we know by the name AlocasiaAmazonica today wasn't even hybridized until the 1930's are they talking aboutthe same plant? How could it be the same hybrid if botanist Andr Michauxwrote about it before his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally dig intothis kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is not fromthe Amazon. The name should never be used in either the italicized formor with single quotations since it is neither a published species nor aregistered cultivar. With the help of John Banta our friend author and expertJulius Boos was able to trace the hybrid to a nursery owner who during the1930's and 1940's owned a now defunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the"Amazon Nursery" and the grower is said to have named AlocasiaAmazonica after his own business. The name has since been used by growers forover 70 years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasiaspecies are all naturally found in the geographical region composed ofSoutheast Asia and neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean includingthe Philippines.No Alocasia species has ever beenfound naturally in Central or South Americaincluding the Amazon basin although species have been imported as well as setfree and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is a species hereare three scientific data bases. You won't find Alocasia Amazonica onany.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London:http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/ WorldChecklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to Andr. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miamiand likely was originally bred in Belgium,France or England sinceit is mentioned in Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have access tothat publication so I can't check out the sources. If it was hybridizedin Europe, who did it? When? Was Andr Michaux involved? Did hewrite about it? If so, where are his papers and more importantly, is itthe same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridized before1800 in England, France or Belgiumthat also used the name Alocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanists but thisone has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, since you are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd reallylike to understand where the name originated and if we are talking about thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
------_=_NextPart_001_01CA6718.63CE7C41----==============148239577106898693= |
|
From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.11.17 at 02:59:16(20305)
Thanks Tom. I finally got the inforight from several of the regulars on Aroid l. Still, I'm lost as tohow his name is associated with Alocasia x amazonica since he died morethan 40 years before it came into existence.
Steve
| HTML +More | |
Tom Croat wrote:
Steve:
I am pretty sure that it was EFAndre who did most of the collecting and botany work that we know of.
Tom
--------------000603080208050507020700 |
|
From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2009.11.17 at 03:30:54(20307)
I was just sent this: "Andréseems to have validated several nothospecific Alocasia in RevueHorticole and Alocasia amazonica might be one of them."
My question still remains. How did André validate a plant hybridizedafter he died?
I'm doing all I can to keep this updated on this page: http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Alocasia%20micholitziana%20%20pc.html
Steve
| HTML +More | |
www.ExoticRainforest.com
Tom Croat wrote:
Steve:
I am pretty sure that it was EFAndre who did most of the collecting and botany work that we know of.
Tom
--------------000506080201090108000808 |
|
From: <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2009.11.17 at 14:05:11(20314)
Dear All,
Marek`s note (below) confirms what I have been suspecting and saying for quite a long time--- since the ORIGINAL hybrid named A. X "Amazonica" was created by Salvatori (Sam) Mauro at his nursery in Miami by crossing A. sanderiana with A. watsoniana, and the resulting hybrid named after his nursery (Amazon Nursery) around 1950, as adult plants were viewed at his nursery in the late 1950`s.
I STRONGLY suspect that others who wish to remain nameless have made OTHER crosses with A. sanderiana using OTHER species of alocasia such as A. lowii, etc., some of these newer hybrids have been placed in tissue culture and sold under the name A. ''Amazonica'', some with new cultivar names as mentioned by Marek ("Polly", etc.) tacked on. All add to the confusion. Steve will post the end-all to this whole puzzle perhaps later today.
Thanks for your input, Marek!
Good Growing,
Julius
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Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:33:47 -0600
From: Steve@ExoticRainforest.com
To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
If anyone gets "killed" it willlikely be me for stirring up another hornet's nest! I believe you arelikely correct on these but would really like to hear from some of thefolks that have a serious understanding of how all this came to be,especially the notation on the Belgium garden site.
Steve
Marek Argent wrote:
Hi Steve,
I will add other probable parents of A. amazonica = (A. longiloba 'Lowii' A. sanderiana).
Its leaf margins are undulate, whilein A. longiloba they are entire and A. sanderianahas deep lobes.
Alocasia 'Polly' is a newercultivar, it is more robust, and the leaf venation is thicker.
Alocasia 'Frydek' or'Freydyk' or 'Maxkowskii' are probably cultivars or hybrids of A.micholitziana, their leaves are velvety.
I'm sending you links to photos ofthese plants, not to pages.
My pages about these plants weremade 6-7 years ago,
and there are a lot of errors in thedescriptions. The photos are identified correctly.
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/amaz.jpg amazonica
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/polly1.jpg 'Polly'
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/grnlf1.jpg micholitziana'Maxkowskii'
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/lowii2.jpg longiloba'Lowii'
Being regarded as a hybridspecies, the name "amazonica" should be italicized:
Alocasia amazonicahort.
If something changed recently(during 5-6 years), please don't kill me for false info.
Best,
Marek
-----Original Message -----
From: ExoticRainforest
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent:Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:37 AM
Subject:[Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
This one is going to be long guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find this interesting.
I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or expertson this forum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can'tseem to reach a resolution.
Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of theworld. It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actualparentage has been debated. Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasiawatsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis haveproduced similar results. Other sources have stated other parentage isinvolved so I'm not sure what the real parentage may have been, I onlyknow it did not come from nature.
The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, GreenVelvet, Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator andcommercial growers have sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as AlocasiaMaxkowskii.
Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if youdo an internet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticut and the USDA list the plant asAlocasia x Amazonica Andr. Unless I've got my facts totally wrong"Andr" refers to botanist Andr Michaux who lived from 1746 to 1802.
Since Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and at least theplant we know by the name Alocasia Amazonica today wasn't evenhybridized until the 1930's are they talking about the same plant? Howcould it be the same hybrid if botanist Andr Michaux wrote about itbefore his death in 1802?
Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally diginto this kind of "plant mystery":
Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is notfrom the Amazon. The name should never be used in either theitalicized form or with single quotations since it is neither apublished species nor a registered cultivar. With the help of JohnBanta our friend author and expert Julius Boos was able to trace thehybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and 1940's owned a nowdefunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the "AmazonNursery" and the grower is said to have named Alocasia Amazonica afterhis own business. The name has since been used by growers for over 70years.
Just in case you are confused, Alocasia species are allnaturally found in the geographical region composed of Southeast Asiaand neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including thePhilippines. No Alocasia species has ever been found naturallyin Central or South America including the Amazon basin although specieshave been imported as well as set free and now thrive in the area.
Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is aspecies here are three scientific data bases. You won't find AlocasiaAmazonica on any.
The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website: http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html
and credited to Andr. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miami and likelywas originally bred in Belgium, France or England since it is mentionedin Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'. I don't have access to thatpublication so I can't check out the sources. If it was hybridized inEurope, who did it? When? Was AndrMichaux involved? Did he write about it? If so, where are his papersand more importantly, is it the same plant we grow?
Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridizedbefore 1800 in England, France or Belgium that also used the nameAlocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami?
I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanistsbut this one has me stumped. Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, sinceyou are in Europe do you know anything about this? I'd really like tounderstand where the name originated and if we are talking about thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today.
Thanks!
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
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From: "Marek Argent" <abri1973 at wp.pl> on 2009.11.18 at 03:43:59(20321)
Hi Steve,
The Alocasia cultivar is named 'Polly' not 'Poly', with this name I saw it for the first time about 2000
and it seems to be correct, though there's neither 'Poly' not 'Polly' in the IAS cultivar database.
I know a page created by an unknown person with a photo "borrowed" from my site,
He wrote that the cultivar 'Polly' was selected by Denis Rotolante in 1993.
http://blogginghouseplants.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html
A big "?"
Marek
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----- Original Message -----
From: ExoticRainforest
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
I was just sent this: "Andr seems to have validated several nothospecific Alocasia in Revue Horticole and Alocasia amazonica might be one of them."
My question still remains. How did Andr validate a plant hybridized after he died?
I'm doing all I can to keep this updated on this page: http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Alocasia%20micholitziana%20%20pc.html
Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com
Tom Croat wrote:
Steve:
I am pretty sure that it was EF Andre who did most of the collecting and botany work that we know of.
Tom
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From: "Tom Croat" <Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2009.11.18 at 05:34:21(20323)
Steve: Certainly that is curious but remember if it is publshed by someone they could simply have given him credit for the name, such as I will be doing for Philodendron fibrosm Sodiro. Hoewver even when I do this it will be called Sodiro ex Croat.
Tom
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From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of ExoticRainforest
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:59 PM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
Thanks Tom. I finally got the info right from several of the regulars on Aroid l. Still, I'm lost as to how his name is associated with Alocasia x amazonica since he died more than 40 years before it came into existence.
Steve
Tom Croat wrote:
Steve:
I am pretty sure that it was EF Andre who did most of the collecting and botany work that we know of.
Tom
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From: bonaventure at optonline.net on 2009.11.24 at 00:00:21(20359)
Is that 'Lowii' named for the Lowe's big-box stores?
Bonaventure
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From: Peter Boyce <phymatarum at googlemail.com> on 2009.11.24 at 07:26:05(20361)
Either for Hugh Low, born Clapton, London, 1824. Travelled to Sarawak and was secretary to James Brook, the first White Rajah of Sarawak or for his father, who together with Hugh's brother Henry Stewart, owned the famous Low and Co. nursery in Clapton.
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:00 AM, wrote:
Is that 'Lowii' named for the Lowe's big-box stores?
Bonaventure
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From: "John Criswick" <criswick at spiceisle.com> on 2009.11.24 at 14:53:59(20363)
I guess this nurserythen moved to Harrow in north-west London, as I used to buy palms from StuartLow Nursery there when I was a boy. John.
From:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter Boyce
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 20093:26 AM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] AlocasiaAmazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
Either for Hugh Low, born Clapton, London, 1824. Travelled to Sarawakand was secretary to James Brook, the first White Rajah of Sarawak or for hisfather, who together with Hugh's brother Henry Stewart, owned the famous Lowand Co. nursery in Clapton.
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On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:00 AM, wrote:
Is that 'Lowii' named for the Lowe's big-box stores?
Bonaventure
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From: bonaventure at optonline.net on 2009.11.26 at 02:05:57(20367)
I know. Just a joke like the several unidentifiable Phalaenopsis homedepotensis I grow.
Bonaventure
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Either for Hugh Low, born Clapton, London, 1824. Travelled to Sarawak and was secretary to James Brook, the first White Rajah of Sarawak or for his father, who together with Hugh's brother Henry Stewart, owned the famous Low and Co. nursery in Clapton.
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:00 AM, wrote:
Is that 'Lowii' named for the Lowe's big-box stores?
Bonaventure
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From: Peter Boyce <phymatarum at googlemail.com> on 2009.11.26 at 05:44:07(20369)
Great uncle I believe.
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:53 PM, John Criswick wrote:
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I guess this nursery then moved to Harrow in north-west London, as I used to buy palms from Stuart Low Nursery there when I was a boy. John.
From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter Boyce
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 3:26 AM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica
Either for Hugh Low, born Clapton, London, 1824. Travelled to Sarawak and was secretary to James Brook, the first White Rajah of Sarawak or for his father, who together with Hugh's brother Henry Stewart, owned the famous Low and Co. nursery in Clapton.
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:00 AM, wrote:
Is that 'Lowii' named for the Lowe's big-box stores?
Bonaventure
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