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  Alvim Seidel Philodendron seeds - questions
From: "Brian A. O'Brien" <bobrien at gac.edu> on 1997.03.11 at 11:37:12(487)
Does anyone on the list know whether or not any of the Philodendron species
listed by Alvim Seidel (seeds) are (1) small enough for terrarium or
Wardian case growing or (2) fairly xerophytic? I presume that giganteum
won't do, and know that selloum won't, for the first case, and wonder in
particular about saxicolum for the second case. I might be interested in
seeds of some species which fit either category. I've copied the list
posted by Neil Crafter below.

Brian O'Brien

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From: Eduardo Gomes Goncalves <eggon at guarany.cpd.unb.br> on 1997.03.12 at 13:52:10(491)
Dear Brian,

If don't want huge species, you better stay far from P. evansii, P.
undulatum (= P.eichleri), P. grandifolium, P. ornatum, P. bipinnatifidum
(=P. mello-barretoanum, P. lundii and P. selloum), P.giganteum, P.
undulatum and P. speciosum (the largest of all). Philodendron adamantinum
is a good one if you want xerophytic plants as well as P. saxicolum.
P.imbe is somewhat rustic and can support xeric conditions. P.
cymbispathum (currently known as P. brasiliense) is an aquatic plant and
usually grows along river banks or marshes (so it isn't xerophytic).

Hope it helps,

Eduardo.

From: Todd Ruth <truth at weber.ucsd.edu> on 1997.03.14 at 11:12:05(499)
Giving Alvim Siedel the benefit of the doubt - that they are
confident that they have for example 2 different sets of plants,
one made up of undulatums and one made up of eichleris, what
would give them this impression? I would ask them, but it appears
that I can't overcome the language barrier. Do they probably have
2 sets of identical plants and charge $35 for seeds from one group
and $50 for seeds from the other? Perhaps one group is actually
hybrids? The same question goes for the 6 potential varieties of
bipinnatifidum on the list and any other "duplicates". I know
Tom Croat is looking into this and a few others mentioned that
they were doing homework of some sort - any input anyone?

Thanks,
Todd

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From: Eduardo Gomes Goncalves <eggon at guarany.cpd.unb.br> on 1997.03.14 at 18:07:03(501)
Dear Todd,

We have an interest subject to discuss here...
Let me introduce the problem: The Taxonomical point of view can be
quite different from the horticultural point of view. In fact, very
different things can be joined under a same botanical name. Such
synonimization (undulatum=eichlerii,
bipinnatifidum=selloum=lundii=melo-barretoanum) has been recently proposed
by Simon Mayo (Kew Bull. 46(4):601-681. 1991), but the changes still
hasn't reached the horticultural business. Besides, the morphological
difference between a typical P. bipinnatifidum and a typical P. selloum
is somewhat impressive. Although, we can find lots of intermediary forms
in the wild so we can't even outline an acceptable diagnosis to
distinguish them as taxonomical units. That doesn't mean that the forms
are morphologicaly equal, but such variability allows that the two
extreme forms, if taken without the intermediaries, can be assumed as
different species (as has already happened in the past). I presume that
Alvim Seidel isn't a taxonomist so he isnt up-to-dated.
If my mind isn't confused, the so-called Amorphophallus 'black-stem'
is an unusual form of the old A. konjac. This is a good example of how two
different things to the horticulturist can be the same thing to someone
like Wilbert (or any other taxonomist)!
There is one more thing. If there is an unusual form of a given
species that is rarer than the other(s), in my opinion, is fair to charge
a little more for it, even when they have the same botanical name.

Sincerely,

Eduardo.

From: Hermine Stover <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 1997.03.14 at 19:03:38(504)
At 08:07 PM 3/14/97 -0600, Eduardo Gomes Goncalves wrote:
>Dear Todd,
>
> We have an interest subject to discuss here...
> Let me introduce the problem: The Taxonomical point of view can be
>quite different from the horticultural point of view. In fact, very
>different things can be joined under a same botanical name. Such
>synonimization (undulatum=eichlerii,
>bipinnatifidum=selloum=lundii=melo-barretoanum) has been recently proposed
>by Simon Mayo (Kew Bull. 46(4):601-681. 1991), but the changes still
>hasn't reached the horticultural business. Besides, the morphological
>difference between a typical P. bipinnatifidum and a typical P. selloum
>is somewhat impressive. Although, we can find lots of intermediary forms
>in the wild so we can't even outline an acceptable diagnosis to
>distinguish them as taxonomical units. That doesn't mean that the forms
>are morphologicaly equal, but such variability allows that the two
>extreme forms, if taken without the intermediaries, can be assumed as
>different species (as has already happened in the past). I presume that
>Alvim Seidel isn't a taxonomist so he isnt up-to-dated.
> If my mind isn't confused, the so-called Amorphophallus 'black-stem'
>is an unusual form of the old A. konjac. This is a good example of how two
>different things to the horticulturist can be the same thing to someone
>like Wilbert (or any other taxonomist)!
> There is one more thing. If there is an unusual form of a given
>species that is rarer than the other(s), in my opinion, is fair to charge
>a little more for it, even when they have the same botanical name.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Eduardo.
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From: Eduardo Gomes Goncalves <eggon at guarany.cpd.unb.br> on 1997.03.16 at 17:54:45(506)
On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Hermine Stover wrote:

>When I got my order from Seidel in the mid 70's (complete with scorpion)

- Wasn't it a spider? Things evolve fast there!!!
The problem is that, here in Brazil, we don't like to export only
plants... we export the whole ecosystem!!! (Ok, I'm just kidding...)

> the Sansevierias included were in no way resembling what they were
> labelled. and they weren't even that rare. I still think such an order as
> this is good, from the standpoint of pure serendipity.

Dear Hermine,

I suppose that Brazil isn't the best place to find rare Sansevierias,
because they are from Africa and some parts of Asia. But if you want to
find out rare Philos, we have lots of them, and it is quite possible to
discover a new species almost everywhere. I described a new species (it
will be on Kew Bulletin until september) that is practically endemic to
an area that is just 2 miles far from my house! If it is possible to meet
rare Philos here in Brasilia, where the aroid biodiversity is
comparatively low, wonder what Mr. Seidel can get, living along the
forests of Southeastern Brazil (one of the main diversity center of such
genus in our country). I agree with you that he should sell his plants
correctly labelled because he must act professionally. Although,
in this case there is a risk of getting a very rare plant paying for
just a common plant, and it isn't too bad. It is only my opinion and I'm not
endorsing nothing from such nursery.

Sincerely,

Eduardo.

From: Hermine Stover <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 1997.03.16 at 21:07:40(508)
At 07:54 PM 3/16/97 -0600, Eduardo Gomes Goncalves wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Hermine Stover wrote:
>
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From: Marie-Eve Charbonneau <charboma at ERE.UMontreal.CA> on 1997.03.19 at 08:58:52(512)
I am making plans to order the philodendron seeds at Alvim Seidel,and after
visiting the Montreal botanical garden and browsing throught Exotica, I
still have some questions and need some help from you, fellow aroiders from
the south !:

- Is P. speciosum that huge (leaf 2-3 meters ?)(in case I would decide to
move to live in a shopping mall or a palace......)

- What looks like P. cymbispathum, (the aquatic one), as I have a tub garden
in my living room (head-type or vine ? form of the leaves ? height ?)

- does P. eichleri has velvety or metallic-looking leaves ?

- is there any philodendron in that list having special leaves in terms of
colours, texture(blotches,spots,veining, velvety or metallic "finishes")

Thank you in advance (merci beaucoup)(muita obrigada)(muchas gracias)

Marie-Eve

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From: Todd Ruth <truth at weber.ucsd.edu> on 1997.03.19 at 16:29:00(514)
Well, I took the previous posts, info. Tom Croat sent me, and everything
I could get out of the Sunset Western Garden Book and made an html
formatted document. Qualcomm isn't allowing the creation of new web
pages right now, so I can't put it up anywhere, put I'll include it
at the end of this message. I think it is fairly readable, even though
it's filled with tags. If you save this message and cut off the top,
you can view the rest with lynx or netscape or whatever. If anyone
has any additional info. or corrections to what's here, please let
me know! Much thanks to those who have provided info allowing what's
here so far!

Thanks,
Todd

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From: Eduardo Gomes Goncalves <eggon at guarany.cpd.unb.br> on 1997.03.20 at 12:15:04(517)
Dear Marie-Eve,

Let me try to answer some of your questions. P. speciosum is really
huge and its leaves usually can grow up to 1m long in the wild. It is true
that some individuals (growing under greenhouse conditions) can have
leaves reaching 1.6m long but it is somewhat rare. Well, it is quite
different from 2-3m long, but you still need a small palace to grow it
indoors!

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From: Eduardo Gomes Goncalves <eggon at guarany.cpd.unb.br> on 1997.03.20 at 13:45:02(518)
Dear Todd,

Let me add some info about the species I know.

P. eximium is a plant from coastal Brazil and inhabit somewhat high
elevations (up to 1100m). It seems to preffer wet and shaded places
(Marcus Nadruz, pers.comm) and the leaves are cordate and delicate.

P.ornatum is a large plant, that ranges from Venezuela to Coastal Brazil.
It is found in elevations ranging from 0 to more than 1000m and can be
found in montane wet forest, Amazonian forest and even on the 'restinga'
(Brazilian vegetation that occurs very near to sea, along the beaches).
It is a good evidence that the plant can handle very different habitats
and seems to be pretty rustic.

P. cordatum is quite different from P. scandens. We have two strong
possibilities: Seidel can be selling a mislabelled P. scandens (formerly
P. oxycardium), a scandent species with short petioles (up to 10cm
long) and cordate leaves without well differentiated basal
ribs. He also can be selling the real P. cordatum that is a Brazilian species
that also inhabit coastal forests (mainly in the state of Santa
Catarina, where Alvim Seidel lives...), but it is larger
and rather creeping than scandent. It has well developed basal ribs,
leaves oblong-cordate and the petiole can reach up to 60cm long.

P. myrmecophilum is a somewhat large species from Amazonian Brazil. It
is epiphytic when young (furtherly hemiepyphitic, because it send roots to
the soil) and have elongated leaves with nectaries on the petiole, next to
the insertion of leaf.

P. wendlandii - In my experience with such species, it seems to support
dry conditions very well (it has the resin ducts in the petioles filled
with a very-hydrated gel and I think it can keep some water inside), but
can't handle direct sun.

Best wishes,

Ed..

From: Greg Hood <ghood at psc.edu> on 1997.03.20 at 20:06:52(519)
I searched through some rather general reference books (cited below)
that I have and found the following information about some species on
the Seidel list. Todd may incorporate some of this into his html file.
--Greg

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