Aroids growing better in water?

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2002.05.24 at 19:24:24(8872) Folks! I am still wondering....! +More Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at msn.com> on 2002.05.25 at 15:05:05(8877) To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Ron, I can only suggest a method that I use for growing 'wet loving' genera such as Urospatha, Dracontioides, Cyrtosperma and Anaphyllopsis, AND Spathiphyllum canifolium, all notoriously reputed to be difficult or impossibly to grow over extended periods of time. They all grow in nature under VERY wet conditions, some almost submerged for long periods of time, some with the rhizome, roots and petioles constantly submerged, but if you do NOT grow them in the manner I will once more detail, they WILL rot and die. I believe that in nature there is an imperceptable movement of water through the flooded soil, plus many 'natural' fungus supression agents must be present under natural/wild conditions. I have been frustrated MANY times when I have explained the method I use to grow these wonderful plants, gave specimens to folks, then a few months later I receive a call telling me that the plants have died. Invariably when I question on HOW they potted them, they admit to doing something different or 'trying something new', I then sometimes 'loose it' and ask them why they did not grow them the way I detailed for at least as long as it would take for them to mature and produce seed, THEN do whatever experiments they wanted to with whatever 'new' potting method THEY might think up! An irreplacable, wild-collected plant was lost by their 'monkeying around'! Enough 'preaching'--- Place about 3 to 4" of 1 to 2" larva rock in the bottom of a suitably sized plastic pot. Place some small gravel on top of the rock (about 1/2 ", this prevents the soil mix filtering down through the larger larva rock). Make a mix consisting mainly of coarse washed 'play sand' ( Home Depot or K-Mark) and peat moss, a handfull or so of a commercial 'soil-less soil mix is added' Plant the specimen in the pot with roots spread as far downwards as their length allows. Place the pot in a LARGE saucer of water which allows about 2" of standing water at all times!!! The whole idea of this method is to prevent ANY of the soil mix in the pot from being CONSTANTLY under water at any time, if the 'soil' in the pot is allowed to sit underwater, the plant will rot and die, and your 'soil' mix will smell like a corpse when you un-pot the dead plant. Grow in bright light but NOT full sun, say under the canopy of a tree w/ N. exposure. Water from above DAILY till the roots are observed growing out of the drain holes of the pot into the water in the saucer. I also treat the plants with a soluable fungicide about every few months as a precaution, rinsing the saucers out the next day, same after I fertilize. A good rain is very benificial in 'flushing' built-up fert. salts out of the pots and saucers. Use a very weak fert. mix say every two weeks, and change the water in the saucer as often as you can, say every week or two at the very least. Protect from ANY cold, wind is also BAD news! Ron, I think that Spaths would LOVE this method! Good growing!! Julius +More WPB, FLORIDA >>Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2002.05.26 at 04:43:46(8879) Hi Julius, Thank you very much for your kind advice. For security, during the northern winter, after acclimatisation & quarantine the Spaths were planted in heated beds (75-80F) of peat moss/soil-less compost with gravel over >6" of sand for heating cables, all kept moist & the root systems were extensive. They have now been potted to rationalise the assemblage. A mixture of soil-less compost & gravel was used in pots with drainage. This is short term (summer) because I do not like the soil-less compost. Apart from fine perlite, very costly, I have no access to lava rock, pumice. In Ireland the plants are grown indoors, no rain, no wind & good light but no direct unfiltered sunlight. Since certain Spathiphyllum are grown as submerged aquarium plants I wanted to see how more could be grown in that way. I transferred a range of sample common forms into strongly aerated waters immersed up to petiole bases, but it was NOT successful & I need to find out WHY. These forms do grow naturally emersed & I did this in UK but in very well drained soil not in peat based composts. Does your method maybe allow a different kind of root to develop for immersion (more aerenchymatous???) not harmed by waterlogging, whereas maybe the plants not immersed have a different structure? Willow (Salix) & other native Trees here grow best here in my muddy sludgy Garden Stream, I just wonder if they too develop roots of special structure adapted to less aerobic conditions? So, thank you, I will try your method with common plants & as roots penetrate the inorganic lower part progressively immerse them. I will also examine the nature of the root growth as it happens. Many plants especially Spathiphyllums can be grown hydroponically in inorganic aggregates, e.g. pumice, rockwool, perlite or even with roots in a covering membrane in air being intermittently submerged or sprayed with water containing very weak nutrients. What I would most like to do is to grow as many Spaths as possible as rheophytes/helophytes. They would then surely be immune to all soil threats. Swamps have substrates which are often foul smelling & seemingly anaerobic so it seems that Spathiphyllum plants which thrive in such conditions may have roots of different structure to those in my moist & adequately aerated pots? So if they are different, can I get my Spaths to grow such roots so that I can grow totally immersed in indoor stream/pond environments, not so much in those darn (plastic!) pots? Has anyone else tried instant or slow inundation with aroids? Ron +More ----- Original Message ----- From: Julius Boos To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 4:05 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Iles To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Ron, I can only suggest a method that I use for growing 'wet loving' genera such as Urospatha, Dracontioides, Cyrtosperma and Anaphyllopsis, AND Spathiphyllum canifolium, all notoriously reputed to be difficult or impossibly to grow over extended periods of time. They all grow in nature under VERY wet conditions, some almost submerged for long periods of time, some with the rhizome, roots and petioles constantly submerged, but if you do NOT grow them in the manner I will once more detail, they WILL rot and die. I believe that in nature there is an imperceptable movement of water through the flooded soil, plus many 'natural' fungus supression agents must be present under natural/wild conditions. I have been frustrated MANY times when I have explained the method I use to grow these wonderful plants, gave specimens to folks, then a few months later I receive a call telling me that the plants have died. Invariably when I question on HOW they potted them, they admit to doing something different or 'trying something new', I then sometimes 'loose it' and ask them why they did not grow them the way I detailed for at least as long as it would take for them to mature and produce seed, THEN do whatever experiments they wanted to with whatever 'new' potting method THEY might think up! An irreplacable, wild-collected plant was lost by their 'monkeying around'! Enough 'preaching'--- Place about 3 to 4" of 1 to 2" larva rock in the bottom of a suitably sized plastic pot. Place some small gravel on top of the rock (about 1/2 ", this prevents the soil mix filtering down through the larger larva rock). Make a mix consisting mainly of coarse washed 'play sand' ( Home Depot or K-Mark) and peat moss, a handfull or so of a commercial 'soil-less soil mix is added' Plant the specimen in the pot with roots spread as far downwards as their length allows. Place the pot in a LARGE saucer of water which allows about 2" of standing water at all times!!! The whole idea of this method is to prevent ANY of the soil mix in the pot from being CONSTANTLY under water at any time, if the 'soil' in the pot is allowed to sit underwater, the plant will rot and die, and your 'soil' mix will smell like a corpse when you un-pot the dead plant. Grow in bright light but NOT full sun, say under the canopy of a tree w/ N. exposure. Water from above DAILY till the roots are observed growing out of the drain holes of the pot into the water in the saucer. I also treat the plants with a soluable fungicide about every few months as a precaution, rinsing the saucers out the next day, same after I fertilize. A good rain is very benificial in 'flushing' built-up fert. salts out of the pots and saucers. Use a very weak fert. mix say every two weeks, and change the water in the saucer as often as you can, say every week or two at the very least. Protect from ANY cold, wind is also BAD news! Ron, I think that Spaths would LOVE this method! Good growing!! Julius WPB, FLORIDA >>Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: Neil Carroll zzamia at hargray.com> on 2002.05.28 at 01:30:08(8901) I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in water (hydroponically). Neil +More ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Iles To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: "Randall M. Story" story at caltech.edu> on 2002.05.28 at 04:04:30(8903) Title: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Even epiphytic orchids, apparently. I saw several yesterday at a friend's--including a Phalaenopsis! Randy +More ---------- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Date: Mon, May 27, 2002, 6:30 PM I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in water (hydroponically). Neil ----- Original Message ----- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: "ron" ronlene at adelphia.net> on 2002.05.28 at 20:21:58(8911) Title: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Phalanopsis cannot sit in water and live very long!!! I hope nobody took you literally. +More ----- Original Message ----- From: Randall M. Story To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Even epiphytic orchids, apparently. I saw several yesterday at a friend's--including a Phalaenopsis!Randy----------From: Neil Carroll To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water?Date: Mon, May 27, 2002, 6:30 PM I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in water (hydroponically). Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Iles To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:24 PMSubject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: Ron McHatton rmchatton at photocircuits.com> on 2002.05.28 at 21:24:02(8912) It is indeed possible to grow Phalaenopsis (as well as virtually any other orchid for that matter) hydroponically. The key is "hydroponically." Plants grown in that manner are not grown in water but rather in an inert medium which can be flushed regularly with water or they are grown in pots which allow the roots to grow down into a water reservoir similar to the growing situation described by Julius for some emergent aroids. In this situation, the Phalaenopsis roots grow down through the potting mix, through the gravel at the bottom of the pot and into the container of water. The roots appear to change structure (they will be fatter and fewer in number) and they will adapt to growing under water. The only time this becomes deadly is if the entire root system is kept under water. In that case, the plants will die rapidly. Many Phragmipedium growers use a technique similar to Julius' using tall pots standing in an inch or two of water. Southeast Asian Vanda growers routinely suspend their plants in baskets with no potting medium, allowing the long roots to grow down into a trough of manure tea. The plants get constant moisture and fertilizer uptake through the submerged roots, the exposed portion of the root mass apparently handles oxygen uptake and the plants grow at a tremendous rate. +More -----Original Message----- From: ron [SMTP:ronlene@adelphia.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 4:22 PM To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Phalanopsis cannot sit in water and live very long!!! I hope nobody took you literally. ----- Original Message ----- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Even epiphytic orchids, apparently. I saw several yesterday at a friend's--including a Phalaenopsis! Randy ---------- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L < aroid-l@mobot.org > Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Date: Mon, May 27, 2002, 6:30 PM I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in water (hydroponically). Neil ----- Original Message ----- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: Steve Marak samarak at arachne.uark.edu> on 2002.05.28 at 21:25:50(8913) On Tue, 28 May 2002, ron wrote: > Re: Aroids growing better in water?Phalanopsis cannot sit in water and > live very long!!! I hope nobody took you literally. > +More >> Even epiphytic orchids, apparently. I saw several yesterday at a >> friend's--including a Phalaenopsis! >>> >>> I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in >>> water (hydroponically). There are some people over on the cactus & succulent list who swear they've seen cacti (terrestrial, desert type cacti, not the epiphytic ones) very happy growing hydroponically. I wouldn't know myself, but according to one, who seemed pretty knowledgable, the issue is oxygenation at the roots, or more accurately a plant's ability to tolerate lack of oxygen in the root zone, not whether the roots are submerged or not. He claimed that with sufficiently aerated water, pretty much anything was possible. Again, I haven't seen it myself, but there's a certain logical consistency to the idea and it fits with various other things in a pleasing way. Steve -- Steve Marak -- samarak@arachne.uark.edu

From: Neil Carroll zzamia at hargray.com> on 2002.05.28 at 22:59:43(8915) Title: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Ron, I beg to differ. As I stated earlier....ANY plant can be grown hydroponically including Phalaenopsis. BUT if you take a plant that has been growing under traditional situations and suddenly plunge THAT root system into water...yes it will die. Plants started in water will develop a different set of roots adapted to such a situation. Neil +More ----- Original Message ----- From: ron To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Phalanopsis cannot sit in water and live very long!!! I hope nobody took you literally. ----- Original Message ----- From: Randall M. Story To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Even epiphytic orchids, apparently. I saw several yesterday at a friend's--including a Phalaenopsis!Randy----------From: Neil Carroll To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water?Date: Mon, May 27, 2002, 6:30 PM I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in water (hydroponically). Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Iles To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:24 PMSubject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2002.05.28 at 23:01:14(8916) Neil Surely in hydroponics & aeroponics roots are in intermittent contact with water but not continuously IN water, submerged, inundated? However it IS my hypothesis that many Spathiphyllum can be grown maybe better IN water just like other water lovers like Anubias, Cryptocoryne, Lagenandra etc etc. Growing Spathiphyllum in this way with roots submerged & leaves intermittently irrigated would surely eliminate the few pest & disease hazards which beset them in terrestrial conditions. My question is whether the water be running, aerated or most simple, or static, with plants rooted in bottom substrates? I tried many theoretical designs which seemed good at first but proved less so afterwards... The bare roots of some hybrid Spathiphyllum transferred from pots to aerated warmed waters here have sometimes rotted here, yet S. wallisii & related forms thrived when their pots were submerged. I sense that the Spathiphyllum used in the "Betta in a Jar" were of the latter kind. The lighter modern green leaved Spathiphyllum often seem too "soft" to survive permanent inundation? Indeed in Florida especially they seem susceptible to Cylindrocladium & other rots. Maybe the soft tissues are not sufficiently aerenchymatous? I cannot justify risky experiments with rare kinds of which I have only small nuclei. So for the moment other aroiders experiences of plants growing IN water in the wild & in captivity are invaluable. Certainly, from the scant literature it is not clear which Spathiphyllum Sections & species grow best IN water in the wild. And even if I succeed in growing pecies well IN water, this does not entitle me to regard them as natural water plants. I have of course plenty of "designer" hybrids. These are mostly from a tiny range of probably line & inbred parents with maybe depleted gene pools. That maybe is why so many look alike & seem more delicate & susceptible to rots? Modern "Designer" Spathiphyllum cultivars are chosen for arbitrary human reasons, as pot plants - for elegance, being ultra- floriferous, capable of withstanding cold, owner neglect etc. They may be less suitable as water plants than species from the wild. As you reported privately Spathiphyllum species come from the widest range of habitats & ecological niches. But still each form has to be evaluated on its performance, I cannot make arbitrary generalisations. Obviously, whether or not one species can grow IN water sheds little light on the tolerances & preferences of the genus as a whole. But in your private communication you mentioned that you saw Spathiphyllum growing epiphytically. That really is most interesting. Have you any idea what species? Would that distinctive species be happy with its roots permanently in water? I have no true epiphytic Spathiphyllum & apparently true epiphytes are rare in water plant genera???? Regrettably, S. solomonense, a hemi-epiphyte(?) has apparently not been collected In PNG since the 1960's & only herbarium specimens exist, & there are seemingly none in cultivation? So, was that the epiphytic species you saw? As I said I need specific wild observations to draw tentative supportative conclusions about best cultural needs of each kind before I can decide what is to be grown IN water or not. For easier & more successful growing I hope I can get observations & ideas from others to accelerate my inundation of as many of the genus as possible So - I need to know enough about the conditions in which species of flora & fauna thrive in the wild in order to achieve the best in cultivation? To treat Spathiphyllum just as swamp plants would be wonderful & easiest for me but how good for the plants? Like animals it may be that captive plants adapted to un-natural artificial conditions & inbred may lose some of the wild vitality & characteristics which made them what they are as species. So idealistically, (and what is Man without ideals?) should one not at least try to culture each & every captive species according to its specific optimum preferences? To me the rarer the species the more important that principle seems to be. More & more in captivity we consider the preferences of rare fauna yet are not plants still widely grown for their tolerances? Indeed commercial pot plants are maybe scheduled for brief spectacular lives, short futures & repeated quick profit? On the other hand, for those natural species for which we accept cultural custody it seems of paramount importance to know the parameters of their wild environments? Yet how often do we see detailed reports by "observers" in the wild of light intensity, temperatures, humidities, soil & water quality etc etc in the niches in which aroids live? Detailed Field Observations with experienced horticulture are surely the way to find out what each species really needs? Summarising - What Spathiphyllum species in the wild actually grow best IN water & which Sections & species will & won't in captivity? Published literature does not seem much to answer these questions. Finally, this brief discussion chain about growing Spaths (& other aroids) IN water again suggests to me a need for aroiders to have a dedicated place for serious public discussion & debate? Aroid-L is the only arena that allows public dialogue about aroids. Sadly the most interesting chains sometimes become tortuous & things of moment buried? Discourse may become diffused & nebulous like chat. Aroid L is obviously good for those things but for things of lasting moment? A lot of World Members do not involve themselves in Aroid-L matters. So, for serious discussions rather than just that "chat" would not a formal Web Members Dialogue/Debate Site with Print back up seem to be desirable? For me it would merit the extra time spent in properly refining ones contributions & finely tuning worthwhile ideas for posterity? Would it not need to have disciplined debate/discussion structure to avoid those meandering chains & eventually inappropriate titles. Could debates be under under "Subject/Topic" headings for lasting reference? Now, within the confines of a maximum eleven page newsletter, is not dialogue & debate for more than five hundred World Members restricted? Dedicated Member dialogue with real "meat" might attract those who want more than Aroid-L "chat" & who are not on line lovers anyway? Meanwhile I hope that those on line who read Aroid-L can continue more & more to debate for the good of all aroiders.... Ron +More ----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Carroll To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 2:30 AM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in water (hydroponically). Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Iles To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2002.05.29 at 04:06:29(8918) Folks I just wish to grow Spathiphyllum IN water as I did maybe with luck with some in UK & to find out HOW. What role do hydroponics or aeroponics etc have in this? With major advantages, have not cacti, succulents, orchids & so many other plants been grown commercially using hydroponics for several decades? +More So - Questions:- Do not all plant roots need oxygen? Are the roots of plants grown terrestrially drowned by sudden, long, continuous submergence? Which plants are not drowned & why not? Do plants which can survive or thrive in water have roots with special adaptive structure to cope with the inundation? (Apparently the roots of emersed water plants in anaerobic swamps have aerenchyma, air spaces, bringing oxygen from the aerial parts?). Can terrestrial plants develop "water roots" or otherwise adapt to inundation? Which terrestrial plants? Which aroids? Are not pests & diseases rarer in water plants & their environments far more easy to control? Some terrestrial plants can seemingly develop "water roots" if this is done slowly much like the "Julius Pot"? In hydroponics are not roots kept moist either by capillary action, trickled water or intermittent raising & lowering of water levels or as in aeroponics intermittent spraying of bare roots? Do plants in hydroponics/aeroponics ever develop "water roots" so that they CAN then be permanently inundated? I would like to grow all my Spathiphyllum currently grown terrestrially IN water. Some forms near to S. wallisii, possibly others grow well if the pots even roots touching the bases are suddenly & continuously submerged in water. Other Spathiphyllum die from the inundation. Can "water roots" be developed in all the species of the genus? (AND other aroid genera?)(It is interesting to see the development of roots in water by Syngonium, Hebe & so many other terrestrial cuttings. and some continue to flourish as "water plants"..... With most maybe is there not need for slow cautious submergence as plant alone decides as Julius describes? If I submerge most terrestrial aroids suddenly in water would I not expect them to die? If like some Spathiphyllum wallisii grown terrestrially they do not, could it be they have already have "water roots" for possible inundation to avoid drowning? Do not terrestrial Spathiphyllum have different root structures from those in water. Can all Spathiphyllum (AND other aroids) develop "water roots" to adapt to growing IN water? Ron

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2002.05.29 at 04:08:01(8919) Title: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Neil The "Ron" you addressed was another "Ron" not me though I understand his caution. A noteable number of plant kinds including some cacti, succulents & orchids have been grown for decades in skilled hydroponics & aeroponics but they represent only a miniscule proportion of the green planet diversity. Surely one needs to know all the facts & factors involved before one makes blanket generalisations that ANY or ALL plants will grow so? Ron +More Iles ----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Carroll To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:59 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Ron, I beg to differ. As I stated earlier....ANY plant can be grown hydroponically including Phalaenopsis. BUT if you take a plant that has been growing under traditional situations and suddenly plunge THAT root system into water...yes it will die. Plants started in water will develop a different set of roots adapted to such a situation. Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: ron To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Phalanopsis cannot sit in water and live very long!!! I hope nobody took you literally. ----- Original Message ----- From: Randall M. Story To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Even epiphytic orchids, apparently. I saw several yesterday at a friend's--including a Phalaenopsis!Randy----------From: Neil Carroll To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water?Date: Mon, May 27, 2002, 6:30 PM I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in water (hydroponically). Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Iles To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:24 PMSubject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? Folks! I am still wondering....! Put simply: What terrestrial aroid species have you found to grow as well or better in water? Ron

From: Neil Carroll zzamia at hargray.com> on 2002.05.29 at 04:12:36(8922) Neil Surely in hydroponics & aeroponics roots are in intermittent contact with water but not continuously IN water, submerged, inundated? +More NO, I would say that the roots are continuously inudated. Take a sweet potatoe, put toothpicks in it and set it in a jar of water. The plant will root completly in the water.....totally under water and send up vines and leaves. It will persist like this as long as you take care of it. This is a terrestrial plant. NO matter what plant it is .....it can be grown with roots unlder water. Again plants will develop an entirely differnt type of root when grown this way. The only thing that tree trunks (epiphytes), rocks (lithophytes) and soil (terrestrials) provide a plant is support and delivery of water and nutrients. The water and nutrients can be provided easily in hydroponics (although you must be careful of salt buildup. support is generally provided with expanded clay or some inert material.......completely covered in water. If you are having trouble growing spathes in water then grow them traditionally in traditional soil mixes. If you are having rotting problems in soil mixes (or 'soiless mixes') then something is wrong with your cultivation. I think the a big mistake people make in growing their plants is to go off trying all kinds of non traditional methods when they have trouble with traditional means. If your problem is root rot then look toward providing a more open mix, greater air circulation, a more sensitive watering hand and more light. These are the things that provide the conditions for rot. However it IS my hypothesis that many Spathiphyllum can be grown maybe better IN water I think that traditional or hydroponic mehtods can produce the same level of perfectionj. It is simply a matter of the growers experience and expertise with his or her plants. The bare roots of some hybrid Spathiphyllum transferred from pots to aerated warmed waters here have sometimes rotted here, yet S. wallisii & related forms thrived when their pots were submerged. I sense that the Spathiphyllum used in the "Betta in a Jar" were of the latter kind. Since you moved terrestrial roots into water culture....I would certainly expect them to rot. S. wallisii, being of a more wet origin, would expect to transfer with better success. Again if done correctly, ANY Spathe or any other plant can be grown with its roots completely under water. I cannot justify risky experiments with rare kinds of which I have only small nuclei. Behind every green thumb is 1000 dead plant bodies. So for the moment other aroiders experiences of plants growing IN water in the wild & in captivity are invaluable. Certainly, from the scant literature it is not clear which Spathiphyllum Sections & species grow best IN water in the wild. And even if I succeed in growing pecies well IN water, this does not entitle me to regard them as natural water plants. How plants grow in the wild can be a valuable indicator as to how to grow them in cultivation .....BUT......The experienced grower "tunes" his plants substrates and locations in his yard or greenhouse by understanding his own habits and his growing space. A growers care habits and the place were the plants are being cultivated are a FAR FAR more important factor than how they grow in the wild. For example, I have seen hundreds of thousands of phragmapedium orchids growing in the wild. Most I have seen grow in some of the heaviest clay I have ever seen. If you try to grow one of these slipper orchids in clay in cultivation it will surely rot. But in your private communication you mentioned that you saw Spathiphyllum growing epiphytically. That really is most interesting. Have you any idea what species? Not a clue. Would that distinctive species be happy with its roots permanently in water? I don't see why not. I have no true epiphytic Spathiphyllum & apparently true epiphytes are rare in water plant genera???? I said that the spathe was growing epiphytically.....I too doubt that there are any true epiphytic spathes (only able to grow epiphytically). In wet and wetter rainforest the line between epiphytes and terrestrials begins to blur. Many normally terrestrial species may grow AS epihytes in some habitats. So - I need to know enough about the conditions in which species of flora & fauna thrive in the wild in order to achieve the best in cultivation? I think not. I believe it is only a very small part of the cultivation picture. Your time would be far better spent in reflecting on your own growing habits and the environment that you have to grow these plants and adjusting them to these factors.. So many many people have so many many different ways to grow the exact species with very similar results. I grow in a green house , use very open mixes and water 3-5 times per week. If someone tried to grow these same plants like this under home conditions on a window sill, they would have a very difficult time. I have found that of all the wild conditions that a particular plant grows in, the most important is altitude. The single most important item in plant cultivation is watering. In low light use less water, In high air exchange conditions use more water, In a house with air conditioning or heat (thus low humidity) you need more water,.....etc. And finally I have seen many many wild species in habitat and 99.9 percent of them don't come close to the potential of the plant when compared to artificial cultivation. Neil

From: Alektra at aol.com on 2002.05.29 at 15:47:28(8924) In a message dated 5/29/2 4:07:59 AM, roniles@eircom.net writes: << If I submerge most terrestrial aroids suddenly in water would I not expect them to die? If like some Spathiphyllum wallisii grown terrestrially they +More do not, could it be they have already have "water roots" for possible inundation to avoid drowning? >> Ron-- Yes and yes. BUT, it is possible to propagate plants so that they grow from the START with water roots. A species may not be able to tolerate being pulled out of a dry pot and getting drowned; but if propagated so a baby plant grows water roots, that species will be able to grow perfectly happy with its roots submerged. (As you have noticed, some species don't care either way; but most do.) Instead of attempting to submerge a plant, have you tried propagating a specimen of the species in water?

From: StellrJ at aol.com on 2002.05.29 at 19:21:24(8926) In a message dated 05/28/2002 9:11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, roniles@eircom.net writes: So - Questions:- +More Ron has posed some excellent questions. For my part, I doubt the answers are known. No doubt many if not all these questions will require specific experiments to find the answers. Horticulture is not my field, so I would not know how to set up such experiments, but it seems to me tissue culture can play an important part, by producing numerous specimens of a single species or cultivar, which could then be tested with different variables. Also, Ron is absolutely correct that ecological observations in the wild are critical: light levels, soils, degree of wetness, etc. Is it not true that the majority of tropical flora (Aroid or otherwise) known to science, are known only by a name and the most general natural history information? A few select taxa have been studied for pollination biology and other details, and of course the most economically important ones are known in detail, but the majority are but names and brief notes, are they not?&n! bsp; But conducting such research requires money, and research grants are in limited supply. So...who has ideas? Jason Hernandez Naturalist-at-Large

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2002.05.29 at 19:23:03(8927) Neil, Thank you for your advice You wrote +More "NO matter what plant it is .....it can be grown with roots under water". >>>>>>>>>>So, what proportion of the plant on the Planet are known to be able to grow in water? All?!!! In every wise generalisation are there not exceptions?!!! . I would hate to feel that as a result of my asking questions about Spaths in water ANY precious aroids became subjected to harmful trial & error risks & there were mass drownings in the IAS! You wrote - "Again plants will develop an entirely differnt type of root when grown this way". >>>>>>>Please could you refer me to your information sources & explain what you mean by different type of root please? What are the mechanisms? That might enable me to get my terrestrial plants to grow more quickly & safely IN water. It appears that one of the possible reasons that waterplants in stagnant conditions can live is the presence of aerenchyma in the roots into which air diffuses from plant parts above the water. It would be good to know what happens when plants change from "land roots" to water roots & how this can be made to happen easiest!. You wrote - (In hydroponics & aerobics) "NO, I would say that the roots are continuously inudated". >>>>>>>>>>>So if they ARE inundated, totally covered etc, with water this suggests that the roots take in oxygen dissolved in that water, not as in leaves as gaseous oxygen? If this is the case then instead of the relative complexity of hydoponics & aeroponics, why not just grow those bare roots continuously submerged in aerated water in tanks anyway? >>>>>>>I do NOT have rot or other problems! All plants in this Specialist World Collection are pristine. Only one plant of the many hundred specimens failed in winter in the heated beds & that arrived too sick to save. But as in everything for me there is always room for improvement. For growing tropical stenothermal shade plants in temperate regions, I abandoned old-fashioned greenhouses decades ago. Since then I have grown tens of thousands of plants in specially designed controlled "closed" environments. One of my two professional interests is tropical freshwater flora & fauna. It therefore follows that I am concerned with the most advanced technologies to culture them. I have very many possible alternative design philosophies needing experimentation & evaluation. But the large number of rare plants here in my custody cannot be put at risk in subjective trial & error experiments. For high probability success, the experiments need to be based on fullest understandings. So, I requested a consensus of the established facts, first hand specific eexperiences & suggestion possibilities from others about aroid roots in water to help select, test & validate future advanced modes of Spathiphyllum & other plant/fish culture. The information together to save time, effort & plants. Again, thank you Neil for your advice. Ron (Iles)

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2002.05.29 at 19:24:34(8928) Thank you & INTERESTING!! You confirm that - 1. Terrestrial aroids in pots are drowned when submerged? 2. Spathiphyllum wallisii & like others in pots may already have some "water roots"? +More Free aquatic culture is so much easier, flexible, non-labour intensive & trouble free than growing in darn pots with composts or even "hydroponics" with aggregates in pots! For the next phase of the Spath operation, I need to find out ASAP just what part water in simple aerated ponds can play rather than using composts in pots. You wrote !it is possible to propagate plants so that they grow from the START with water roots. A species may not be able to tolerate being pulled out of a dry pot and getting drowned; but if propagated so a baby plant grows water roots, that species will be able to grow perfectly happy with its roots submerged. (As you have noticed, some species don't care either way; but most do.) Instead of attempting to submerge a plant, have you tried propagating a specimen of the species in water?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Potted Spathiphyllum can obviously be divided for propagation but the "baby plants" have roots. Without roots can they be viable? If one puts say some Syngonium/Monstera/Philodendron stem cuttings with dry aerial roots in water, they do develop "water roots" readily. (I do not know if & how "aerial roots" are really distinct from "normal" roots!.) Soh - I will experiment more! I do not understand why some de-potted Spaths, BARE roots, when immersed in water which is strongly & continuously aerated, do badly? Do land roots take in gaseous oxygen or oxygen from surrounding water? How important is firm anchorage? Is it important for roots to be in darkness when submerged? How many Members already grow their "land" aroids in water? Any other ideas please? Ron

From: "Plantsman" plantsman at prodigy.net> on 2002.05.29 at 19:57:53(8929) My mother kept rooted cuttings of Philodendron oxycardium for many years growing in nothing but water with an occasional addition of liquid fertilizer. She simply made the cutting and immersed the base couple of nodes in jars of water and left them. They usually rooted readily and made very long vines. I don't know what would happen if you took an already terrestrially rooted plant and put it in water. +More David Sizemore Kingsport, TN (zone 6) Where the Arum italicum are just about finished flowering ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list AROID-L" Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? : In a message dated 5/29/2 4:07:59 AM, roniles@eircom.net writes: : << If I submerge most terrestrial aroids suddenly in water would I not expect : : them to die? If like some Spathiphyllum wallisii grown terrestrially they : : do not, could it be they have already have "water roots" for possible : : inundation to avoid drowning? >> : : Ron-- : Yes and yes. : : BUT, it is possible to propagate plants so that they grow from the START with : water roots. A species may not be able to tolerate being pulled out of a dry : pot and getting drowned; but if propagated so a baby plant grows water roots, : that species will be able to grow perfectly happy with its roots submerged. : (As you have noticed, some species don't care either way; but most do.) : Instead of attempting to submerge a plant, have you tried propagating a : specimen of the species in water?

From: "Kathy Kempf" wont_read101 at hotmail.com> on 2002.06.06 at 15:50:33(8962) Steve, as a former AZ resident, and outdoor lover and explorer, I encountered many cacti and other succulents that grew in standing water. Among the types I have seen growing this way were: organ pipe cactus (Stenocereus thurberi) in or around the National Monument, a grandma cactus (probably a species of Garambullo), and an unidentified type of cholla. All were grounded in the shore, but I could see many of the roots penetrating into surrounding permanent water (lake, pond, etc) and the flood-plain in which they grew made it obvious that the plant was periodically flooded, which would last for at least a week. Haven't tried to grow any of cactus this way, but they do grow that way naturally. Kathy Kempf Ohio Zone 6 >From: Steve Marak +More >Reply-To: aroid-l@mobot.org >To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L >Subject: Re: Aroids growing better in water? >Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:25:47 -0500 (CDT) > >On Tue, 28 May 2002, ron wrote: > > > Re: Aroids growing better in water?Phalanopsis cannot sit in water and > > live very long!!! I hope nobody took you literally. > > > >> Even epiphytic orchids, apparently. I saw several yesterday at a > >> friend's--including a Phalaenopsis! > >>> > >>> I would venture to say that just about ANY plant can be grown in > >>> water (hydroponically). > >There are some people over on the cactus & succulent list who swear >they've seen cacti (terrestrial, desert type cacti, not the epiphytic >ones) very happy growing hydroponically. > >I wouldn't know myself, but according to one, who seemed pretty >knowledgable, the issue is oxygenation at the roots, or more accurately a >plant's ability to tolerate lack of oxygen in the root zone, not whether >the roots are submerged or not. He claimed that with sufficiently aerated >water, pretty much anything was possible. > >Again, I haven't seen it myself, but there's a certain logical consistency >to the idea and it fits with various other things in a pleasing way. > >Steve > >-- Steve Marak >-- samarak@arachne.uark.edu > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Note: this is a very old post, so no reply function is available.