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This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.
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Question--Colocasia "Black magic"
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From: "Dean Ouer" <d.ouer at cox.net> on 2004.03.14 at 06:32:19(11270)
Can any of you aroid experts answer the following question about the "Black Magic" colocasia?
I grow it in So California and also in Hawaii. The leafs look identical to me in both locations so I always assumed they are the same species. However, when grown in California it "suckers" only right next to the base of the mother plant. The suckers are so close it is even hard to split off the "pups." In Hawaii it sends out long runners (3-5 feet long) with a plantlet on the end like I have seen other Colocasias do. But the "Black Magic" I grow in California has never sent out a runner. And the one I grow in Hawaii only seldom suckers close by.
Are there two different species of "Black Magic" or is this difference in growth due only to climate?
Thanks for any feedback,
Dean
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From: Harry Witmore <harrywitmore at witmore.net> on 2004.03.14 at 13:04:57(11271)
Dean, I believe these are 2 different species that happen to look allot
alike. I have heard the one that produces runners called Black Runner, but
I'm not sure if that's a correct name or not.
| +More | |
At 10:32 PM 3/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
Can any of you aroid experts answer the following question about the
"Black Magic" colocasia?
I grow it in So California and also in Hawaii. The leafs look identical to
me in both locations so I always assumed they are the same species.
However, when grown in California it "suckers" only right next to the base
of the mother plant. The suckers are so close it is even hard to split off
the "pups." In Hawaii it sends out long runners (3-5 feet long) with a
plantlet on the end like I have seen other Colocasias do. But the "Black
Magic" I grow in California has never sent out a runner. And the one I
grow in Hawaii only seldom suckers close by.
Are there two different species of "Black Magic" or is this difference in
growth due only to climate?
Thanks for any feedback,
Dean
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Harry Witmore
Zone 7 NC
Cloud Jungle Art
Epiphytes.Org
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From: "W. George Schmid" <hostahill at bellsouth.net> on 2004.03.14 at 13:22:05(11272)
Dean,
In Atlanta, Georgia: Pots standing in 2-3 inches of water produce long
runners (in the cool greenhouse after dormancy). The runners circle the
inside of the pot, eventually grow over the edge and into the water, where
they form rooted puppies. George
W. George Schmid
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Hosta Hill - Tucker Georgia USA
Zone 7a - 1188 feet AMSL
84-12'-30" West_33-51' North
Outgoing e-mail virus checked by NAV
----- Original Message -----
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:32 AM
Subject: [aroid-l] Question--Colocasia "Black magic"
Can any of you aroid experts answer the following question about the "Black
Magic" colocasia?
I grow it in So California and also in Hawaii. The leafs look identical to
me in both locations so I always assumed they are the same species. However,
when grown in California it "suckers" only right next to the base of the
mother plant. The suckers are so close it is even hard to split off the
"pups." In Hawaii it sends out long runners (3-5 feet long) with a plantlet
on the end like I have seen other Colocasias do. But the "Black Magic" I
grow in California has never sent out a runner. And the one I grow in Hawaii
only seldom suckers close by.
Are there two different species of "Black Magic" or is this difference in
growth due only to climate?
Thanks for any feedback,
Dean
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From: <rnranimals at zoomtown.com> on 2004.03.14 at 21:52:26(11274)
Hello,
Ric here.
I've been lurking until a topic popped up I'm familiar w/.
| +More |
I've grown both Black Magic for four years and Black Runner for two years now.
I totally agree w/ Brian on the ruffles on Runner and it seems they will run at the first sign of being pot bound.
I have one in a 6" pot running now in the plant room at 10" tall.
They also hold color much better at lower light.
Our Black Magic doesn't run here in Cincinnati until late in the season. In fact the first two years they didn't run until just before they went dormant.
Our Black Runner main plant (mother?) didn't go dormant at all this winter, it just slowed down, and is still pupping.
Ric
>
> From: Harry Witmore
> Date: 2004/03/14 Sun AM 08:04:57 EST
> To: aroid-l@lists.ncsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [aroid-l] Question--Colocasia "Black magic"
>
> Dean, I believe these are 2 different species that happen to look allot
> alike. I have heard the one that produces runners called Black Runner, but
> I'm not sure if that's a correct name or not.
>
> At 10:32 PM 3/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >Can any of you aroid experts answer the following question about the
> >"Black Magic" colocasia?
> >I grow it in So California and also in Hawaii. The leafs look identical to
> >me in both locations so I always assumed they are the same species.
> >However, when grown in California it "suckers" only right next to the base
> >of the mother plant. The suckers are so close it is even hard to split off
> >the "pups." In Hawaii it sends out long runners (3-5 feet long) with a
> >plantlet on the end like I have seen other Colocasias do. But the "Black
> >Magic" I grow in California has never sent out a runner. And the one I
> >grow in Hawaii only seldom suckers close by.
> >Are there two different species of "Black Magic" or is this difference in
> >growth due only to climate?
> >Thanks for any feedback,
> >Dean
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.618 / Virus Database: 397 - Release Date: 3/9/2004
>
> Harry Witmore
> Zone 7 NC
> Cloud Jungle Art
> Epiphytes.Org
> Cloud Jungle ePiphytes
>
>
Ric -n- the Crew
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From: Tony Avent <tony at plantdelights.com> on 2004.04.05 at 22:27:10(11364)
Jason:
Regarding your Colocasia 'Black Magic' question, I can share a bit of
background. This clone clumps in most climates, but when grown as an
aquatic, it does produce runners. In very wet season, we have seen the
occasional runner. In tissue culture, C. 'Black Magic' mutated to a form
that runs in all climates. It was given the name C. 'Black Runner'. This
form also has leaves that emerge darker and have more ruffling around the
edges. I hope this helps.
| +More |
At 01:15 AM 4/2/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>"Dean Ouer" wrote:
>
>>Can any of you aroid experts answer the following question about the
"Black Magic" colocasia?
>>I grow it in So California and also in Hawaii. The leafs look identical
to me in both locations so I always assumed they are the same species.
However, when grown in California it "suckers" only right next to the base
of the mother plant. The suckers are so close it is even hard to split off
the "pups." In Hawaii it sends out long runners (3-5 feet long) with a
plantlet on the end like I have seen other Colocasias do. But the "Black
Magic" I grow in California has never sent out a runner. And the one I grow
in Hawaii only seldom suckers close by.
>>Are there two different species of "Black Magic" or is this difference in
growth due only to climate?
>
>The differences you describe, sound like subspecies/varietal differences!
Colocasia esculenta has 3 subspecies/varieties: C. e. esculenta, the
nominate form; C. e. antiquorum; and C. e. aquatilis. Could it be that the
'Black Magic' leaf has appeared in two different subspecies/varieties?
>
>Jason Hernandez
>Naturalist-at-Large
>
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, NC 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email tony@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdel.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least
three times" - Avent
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From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2004.04.06 at 09:59:54(11367)
Reply-To: aroid-l@lists.ncsu.edu
To: aroid-l@lists.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: [aroid-l] Question--Colocasia "Black magic"
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 18:27:10 -0400
Dear Friends,
Great observation, Tony!! Tissue culture is known to produce rapid
mutation in Aroids, several of the commercially available 'new' Alocasias
have also been developed this way!
Though I have written on this topic many times, I am not sure that many of
us 'get it' concerning how relatively quickly some/most aroids evolve/mutate
vegetatively. In Colocasia and Xanthosoma, being perhaps the most
commonly and widely grown (as food), we can see the record on these most
easily. To come to the 'hard wall of realization' quickly, take a look
at Colocasia----It was introduced to Hawaii just a few thousand years ago by
canoes, probably just a very few cultivars, yet by the time anyone (modern
man) 'took notice', the Hawaiiana had developed over two hundren cultivars
(yes, over 200!!) just by selecting off-shoots of one that may have been
'different' or superior to the 'mother' plant, no sexual reproduction
involving pollination was involved!! Almost the same can be said for
Xanthosoma. I have also recorded a very suspicious rapid vegetative
evoloution' in the giant aroid Montrichardia on Trinidad which I am still
looking at!
To see this actually happening, buy a plant of the Xanthiosoma sp. (with the
little frills below the leaf blade) and just see how the off-shoots can
change from the 'original' mother-plant!
Good Growing,
Julius
| +More |
Jason:
Regarding your Colocasia 'Black Magic' question, I can share a bit of
background. This clone clumps in most climates, but when grown as an
aquatic, it does produce runners. In very wet season, we have seen the
occasional runner. In tissue culture, C. 'Black Magic' mutated to a form
that runs in all climates. It was given the name C. 'Black Runner'. This
form also has leaves that emerge darker and have more ruffling around the
edges. I hope this helps.
At 01:15 AM 4/2/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>"Dean Ouer" wrote:
>
>>Can any of you aroid experts answer the following question about the
"Black Magic" colocasia?
>>I grow it in So California and also in Hawaii. The leafs look identical
to me in both locations so I always assumed they are the same species.
However, when grown in California it "suckers" only right next to the base
of the mother plant. The suckers are so close it is even hard to split off
the "pups." In Hawaii it sends out long runners (3-5 feet long) with a
plantlet on the end like I have seen other Colocasias do. But the "Black
Magic" I grow in California has never sent out a runner. And the one I grow
in Hawaii only seldom suckers close by.
>>Are there two different species of "Black Magic" or is this difference
in
growth due only to climate?
>
>The differences you describe, sound like subspecies/varietal differences!
Colocasia esculenta has 3 subspecies/varieties: C. e. esculenta, the
nominate form; C. e. antiquorum; and C. e. aquatilis. Could it be that the
'Black Magic' leaf has appeared in two different subspecies/varieties?
>
>Jason Hernandez
>Naturalist-at-Large
>
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, NC 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email tony@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdel.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least
three times" - Avent
_________________________________________________________________
Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
Premium!
http://join.msn.com/?pagežatures/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/
|
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From: Tony Avent <tony at plantdelights.com> on 2004.04.06 at 16:13:22(11370)
Julius:
It is amazing when you grow enough plants to watch for mutations. Some
genera are very unstable and other seemingly never mutate. I expect that
many genera simply have faulty cell division processes...sort of like
buying a computer with a bad hard drive...sometimes it works...sometimes it
doesn't. A classic example is hosta, where there are a small number of
green species. We now have over 4,000 named cultivars. Only a tiny
fraction are seedlings and the rest are due to mutations. There are now
groups of plant nerds that go on sport-fishing expeditions to nurseries and
they aren't looking for fish.
| +More |
At 09:59 AM 4/6/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>From: Tony Avent
>>Reply-To: aroid-l@lists.ncsu.edu
>>To: aroid-l@lists.ncsu.edu
>>Subject: Re: [aroid-l] Question--Colocasia "Black magic"
>>Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 18:27:10 -0400
>>
>Dear Friends,
>
>Great observation, Tony!! Tissue culture is known to produce rapid
>mutation in Aroids, several of the commercially available 'new' Alocasias
>have also been developed this way!
>Though I have written on this topic many times, I am not sure that many of
>us 'get it' concerning how relatively quickly some/most aroids evolve/mutate
>vegetatively. In Colocasia and Xanthosoma, being perhaps the most
>commonly and widely grown (as food), we can see the record on these most
>easily. To come to the 'hard wall of realization' quickly, take a look
>at Colocasia----It was introduced to Hawaii just a few thousand years ago by
>canoes, probably just a very few cultivars, yet by the time anyone (modern
>man) 'took notice', the Hawaiiana had developed over two hundren cultivars
>(yes, over 200!!) just by selecting off-shoots of one that may have been
>'different' or superior to the 'mother' plant, no sexual reproduction
>involving pollination was involved!! Almost the same can be said for
>Xanthosoma. I have also recorded a very suspicious rapid vegetative
>evoloution' in the giant aroid Montrichardia on Trinidad which I am still
>looking at!
>To see this actually happening, buy a plant of the Xanthiosoma sp. (with the
>little frills below the leaf blade) and just see how the off-shoots can
>change from the 'original' mother-plant!
>
>Good Growing,
>Julius
>
>>>Jason:
>>
>> Regarding your Colocasia 'Black Magic' question, I can share a bit of
>>background. This clone clumps in most climates, but when grown as an
>>aquatic, it does produce runners. In very wet season, we have seen the
>>occasional runner. In tissue culture, C. 'Black Magic' mutated to a form
>>that runs in all climates. It was given the name C. 'Black Runner'. This
>>form also has leaves that emerge darker and have more ruffling around the
>>edges. I hope this helps.
>>
>>At 01:15 AM 4/2/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> >"Dean Ouer" wrote:
>> >
>> >>Can any of you aroid experts answer the following question about the
>>"Black Magic" colocasia?
>> >>I grow it in So California and also in Hawaii. The leafs look identical
>>to me in both locations so I always assumed they are the same species.
>>However, when grown in California it "suckers" only right next to the base
>>of the mother plant. The suckers are so close it is even hard to split off
>>the "pups." In Hawaii it sends out long runners (3-5 feet long) with a
>>plantlet on the end like I have seen other Colocasias do. But the "Black
>>Magic" I grow in California has never sent out a runner. And the one I grow
>>in Hawaii only seldom suckers close by.
>> >>Are there two different species of "Black Magic" or is this difference
>>in
>>growth due only to climate?
>> >
>> >The differences you describe, sound like subspecies/varietal differences!
>>Colocasia esculenta has 3 subspecies/varieties: C. e. esculenta, the
>>nominate form; C. e. antiquorum; and C. e. aquatilis. Could it be that the
>>'Black Magic' leaf has appeared in two different subspecies/varieties?
>> >
>> >Jason Hernandez
>> >Naturalist-at-Large
>> >
>>Tony Avent
>>Plant Delights Nursery @
>>Juniper Level Botanic Garden
>>9241 Sauls Road
>>Raleigh, NC 27603 USA
>>Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
>>Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
>>USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
>>email tony@plantdelights.com
>>website http://www.plantdel.com
>>phone 919 772-4794
>>fax 919 772-4752
>>"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least
>>three times" - Avent
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
>Premium!
>http://join.msn.com/?pagežatures/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/dir
ect/01/
>
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, NC 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email tony@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdel.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least
three times" - Avent
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From: "Bryant, Susan L." <SLBryant at scj.com> on 2004.04.06 at 18:41:07(11374)
OK, now you are speaking Julius's language!
:)
sort of like
| +More |
buying a computer with a bad hard drive...sometimes it works...sometimes it
doesn't.
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From: hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2004.04.06 at 19:46:54(11375)
At 09:13 AM 04/06/2004, Tony Avent wrote:
Julius:
It is amazing when you grow enough plants to watch for mutations.
A classic example is hosta, where there are a small number of
green species. We now have over 4,000 named cultivars. Only a tiny
fraction are seedlings and the rest are due to mutations. There are now
groups of plant nerds that go on sport-fishing expeditions to nurseries and
they aren't looking for fish.
I am one of those sport fishermen. i bless the unstable, for theirs is the
kingdom of heaven.
hermine
| +More | |
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.648 / Virus Database: 415 - Release Date: 03/31/2004
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From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2004.04.06 at 23:45:55(11376)
Reply-To: aroid-l@lists.ncsu.edu
To: "'aroid-l@lists.ncsu.edu'"
Subject: Re: [aroid-l] Question--Colocasia "Black magic"
| +More |
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 13:41:07 -0500
OK, now you are speaking Julius's language!<<>><<
Hardy har har! (:--)>
Thanks Susan!
Julius
:)
sort of like
buying a computer with a bad hard drive...sometimes it works...sometimes it
doesn't.
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee ®
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid963
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From: MossyTrail at cs.com on 2004.04.07 at 07:08:01(11378)
Tony Avent wrote:
>Jason:
>
> Regarding your Colocasia 'Black Magic' question, I can share a bit of
>background. This clone clumps in most climates, but when grown as an
>aquatic, it does produce runners. In very wet season, we have seen the
>occasional runner. In tissue culture, C. 'Black Magic' mutated to a form
>that runs in all climates. It was given the name C. 'Black Runner'. This
>form also has leaves that emerge darker and have more ruffling around the
>edges. I hope this helps.
>
Yes, it does. As I recall, it is the variety C. e. aquatilis that runs. Your explanation suggests that these varieties may be, at least in part, ecotypes -- when grown it a wet stuation, it "becomes" aquatilis. Have there been any genetic/phylogeny studies on the three varieties of C. esculenta, to determine whether their differences are genotypic (suggesting true subspecies) or merely phenotypic (suggesting ecotypes)?
Jason Hernandez
| +More | |
Naturalist-at-Large
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From: "Bryant, Harry E." <HEBryant at scj.com> on 2004.04.07 at 17:41:16(11379)
Dear Aroid-geeks,
It's probably a question of semantics but I wonder if much of this thread is
based on confusion between mutation, or, changed genotype, and varrying
phenotypic expression of the same genotype in response to the environmental
conditions that are present during tissue culture. My guess is that it is
phenotype rather than mutation. I suspect mutations will be caused by much
more rigerous conditions such as strong UV light, or agressive mutagenic
chemicals. My guess is the only way to find out for sure is to do DNA
analysis and see if the same genes are present but are expressed differently
quantitatively. And, I doubt anybody in this crowd has the resources to do
this kind of study.
A quick google pointed to the following link on genotype vs. phenotype. You
may find it of value.
http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e10/10d.htm
Harry Bryant
| +More | |
(Susan's worst half)
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:aroid-l-owner@lists.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of MossyTrail@cs.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 2:08 AM
To: aroid-l@lists.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: [aroid-l] Question--Colocasia "Black magic"
Tony Avent wrote:
>Jason:
>
> Regarding your Colocasia 'Black Magic' question, I can share a bit of
>background. This clone clumps in most climates, but when grown as an
>aquatic, it does produce runners. In very wet season, we have seen the
>occasional runner. In tissue culture, C. 'Black Magic' mutated to a form
>that runs in all climates. It was given the name C. 'Black Runner'. This
>form also has leaves that emerge darker and have more ruffling around the
>edges. I hope this helps.
>
Yes, it does. As I recall, it is the variety C. e. aquatilis that runs.
Your explanation suggests that these varieties may be, at least in part,
ecotypes -- when grown it a wet stuation, it "becomes" aquatilis. Have
there been any genetic/phylogeny studies on the three varieties of C.
esculenta, to determine whether their differences are genotypic (suggesting
true subspecies) or merely phenotypic (suggesting ecotypes)?
Jason Hernandez
Naturalist-at-Large
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Note: this is a very old post, so no reply function is available.
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