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  "minature" M. deliciosa??
From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2007.02.03 at 13:42:58(15217)
Dear All,

A question--what is the status of the existence of a true 'minature' clone
of Monstera deliciosa, and what, it it does exist, are the measurements of a
MATURE leaf of this mimature?????
I THINK I remember a discussion on this back when we exchanged ideas about
the non-existence of the 'red-varigated' clone of the same species which, I
believe, turned out to be a photo-shopped/modified picture of the
white-varigated variety of this species.
I THINK I recall someone saying that the common and BIG clone of this was a
selection from the wild, and if one went back to the area where this plant
occured in Coastal Mexico, one would have difficulty in finding such a large
clone, most wild plants of this species were substantially smaller that the
big one we see everywhere in cultivation Worldwide.

Any information would be welcome!

Good Growing!

Julius

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From: "Tom Croat" <Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2007.02.05 at 09:50:43(15223)
Dear Julius:

The large, heavily perforated form of Monstera deliciosa I have
seen only in central Chiapas at Uspanapa, growing on limestone outcrops.
As one procedes south the blades are typically smaller and often are not
perforate at all. I do have a Monstera collected in Honduras that has
consistently small leaves is, I believe, a close relative to Monstera
deliciosa.

Tom

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From: <abri1973 at wp.pl> on 2007.02.05 at 13:05:35(15226)
Hello,

This "compact" Monstera deliciosa is named M.d. "Borsigiana" or sometimes
M.d. var. borsigiana, but this is rather a cultivar, not a natural variety.
The largest leaf I've seen was about 40 cm (1' 4") in diameter.

http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/monstera/pertusa.htm

Don't be deceived by the filename "pertusa", once I thought it was M.
pertusa, and I don't change filenames in my website because some other sites
have direct links to my pages.

Greetings

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From: RAYMOMATTLA at cs.com on 2007.02.05 at 14:05:46(15227)
Julius,
Im may be way off but seems like alot of people were confusing Rhaphidophora tetrasperma with miniature Monstera deliciosa. That plant was also called Amydrium, Philodendron, and Monstera "Ginny" as well as a form of Epipremnum pinnatum, until I believe Peter Boyce and David Scherberich concluded it was in fact a Rhaphidophora.
Michael
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From: "Peter Boyce" <botanist at malesiana.com> on 2007.02.05 at 14:15:23(15228)
Dear Julius and All

In the 90s while working on Rhaphidophora
I investigated the so-called miniature form of M. deliciosa in
cultivation in Europe (and as named in Birdsey's Cultivated Aroids as 'Dwarf
Ceriman') and these plants were without exception Rhaphidophora
tetrasperma from Peninsular Malaysia and southern Thailand.

At the time Josef had a large one flowering in
Munich and it was from here that I obtained inflorescences to confirm the
generic Id. Material from this clone was later used by one of my students Tam
Shey May for molecular work on the Monstereae and embedded in the
Rhaphidophora clade as sister to R. nicolsonii from Pen.
Malaysia while M. deliciosa (one of she outgroups) remained clustered
with Stenopsermation and a Rhodospatha. Thus morphologically
(ovules/seeds) and on molecular (trn-l/trn-f) the European
'Dwarf'Deliciosa'is a Rhaphidophora.

Peter

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From: Bluesea <chammer at cfl.rr.com> on 2007.02.05 at 21:42:45(15231)
I think we need to establish which Aroid
Julius's original question was regarding, the Rhaphidophora, or the M.
deliciosa
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From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2007.02.06 at 01:56:59(15233)
Reply-To : Discussion of aroids
Sent : Monday, February 5, 2007 9:05 PM
To : "Discussion of aroids"
Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] "minature" M. deliciosa??

Dear All,

First off, Thanks to Marek (and others like Raymond M. who responded to the
list on my querry!), for sharing this information with all of us, it was (I
THINK!) what I was looking for.
Tom and Pete, is this TRUE Monstera deliciosa, or something else (please
check the link kindly given by Marek in his note, below)? It certainly
LOOKS like a true M. deliciosa, with even the SAME fenestrations (holes) and
splits in its mature leaves. Tom, does your small Honduran collection have
these fenestrations?? What is the largest leaf on this Honduran
collection?
Thanks again to all of you for sharing your knowledge, it enriches all of
us!

Julius

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From: "Famille FERRY" <jpcferry2 at wanadoo.fr> on 2007.02.06 at 11:53:13(15237)
Dear all,

I you sendings a photograph of Rhaphidophora
tetrasperma which I made this morning at the botanical garden
of Nancy.
In 2000, I went to Munich with David Scherberich and we met
Josef Bogner. He gave me a cutting of this
Monstera. He said that it was a dwarf form of Monstera deliciosa. In
fact, it is about Rhaphidophora tetrasperma. This plant is splendid and I
think that it deserves to be marketed.
Cordially,

Geneviève Ferry

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From: Hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2007.02.06 at 18:28:05(15239)
At 11:53 AM 2/6/2007, Famille FERRY wrote:

Dear all,

I you sendings a photograph of Rhaphidophora tetrasperma which I made
this morning at the botanical garden of Nancy.
In 2000, I went to Munich with David Scherberich and we met Josef
Bogner. He gave me a cutting of this Monstera. He
said that it was a dwarf form of Monstera deliciosa. In fact, it is about
Rhaphidophora tetrasperma. This plant is splendid and I think that it
deserves to be marketed.
Cordially,

Geneviève Ferry

what a wonderful guy! i have written to him and gotten back letters and
"stuff" propagation material and what all, and I am NOBODY,
years ago I was even LESS, and still, I got back real great paper
letters.
that is all I have to say except that i am plantwise decimated by our
cold in Southern California. if this is global warming, the earth must be
flat.
hermine

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From: "Famille FERRY" <jpcferry2 at wanadoo.fr> on 2007.02.07 at 07:12:22(15242)
Yes , you are right. Josef Bogner is very, very generous. We
enriched the collection by Aracées of Nancy with the gifts which he
gave.

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From: "alocasia" <bs246466 at skynet.be> on 2007.02.07 at 12:08:48(15245)
Yes,Josef is maybe the most generous 'plantman'
that i ever
meet.I will never forget my visit in
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From: Eric Schmidt <leu242 at yahoo.com> on 2007.02.08 at 14:06:38(15257)
Below is a link to a photo of 3 different Monstera
delicosa leaves from here at Leu Gardens. There seems
to be 3 forms in our collection. The first, the
smaller leaf at the far left, is the var. borsigiana,
the one in the middle is the large form and the one on
the right is a smaller form. There is also a U.S.
dollar added for scale;

http://tinyurl.com/24vzqn

Eric

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