[Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id

From: botanist at malesiana.com (Peter Boyce) on 2007.10.16 at 06:33:46(16512) Tony; My 'thoughts' on esculenta still hold true (for me I hasten to add - am not trying to gain the truth high ground!); the real problem is, as ever, that esculenta has been cultivated (or at least managed) for a VERY long time and that without some pretty robust molecular work utilizing genes to investigate the phylogenetic as well as culton level it is exceedingly difficult to devise a reliable taxonomy. Colocasia bicolor is almost certainly not distinguishable from affinis. 'Illustris' would shoehorn into antiquorum. As ever Peter +More ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Avent To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id Pete: Maybe this discussion can prompt some molecular interest in colocasia. I can certainly see how Colocasia affinis and C. heterochroma fit within either the species C. fallax, or something on the same branch of the family tree. I am not familiar with C. bicolor. C. 'Illustis' and C. 'Fontanesii' look like much more distant relatives. Back in April 2003, you mentioned "From a taxonomic perspective I tend to apply the respective names 1. var.antiquorum, 2. var. esculenta, and 3. var. aquatilis." I assumed from this that C. esculenta var. antiquorum included the cultivar that we know as 'Illustris'. Is this still your thinking, or has new information moved your thoughts in a different direction? Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony at plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Peter Boyce wrote: Tony, I am not saying it is 100%, all I can say is that types plants of heterochroma and bicolor that I have seen in China fall pretty incontrovertibly into fallax sens. lat. They are all notable for the pencil-diameter stolons that do not branch much, the thin-textured leaves that are often (but by not means always) dark-variegated and the rather dull yellow to prurpe-brwon-tinged inflorescences. Into this stew you need to add C. affinis which in nature is readily identifiable by always grwoing on near-vertical mud waterfalls and river banks with flowing water and in nature and cultivation by the very slender (almost wire-thin) much branching stolons. Colocasia affinis is also USUALLY of much smaller stature than fallax sens lat. although big plants of afiinis can be larger and as robust as small-end fallax while large end fallax can be mistaken as rather weakend esculenta. As to mlecular analyses of this group, as far as I am aware nothing is underway. Very best Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Avent To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id Pete: Say it ain't so. C. 'Illustris' is a selection of C. fallax? Are you also saying that C. heterochroma now gets dumped into C. fallax also? Obviously, I must have slept while the taxonomists worked. Has someone completed the DNA-based phylogeny of colocasia yet? Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony at plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Peter Boyce wrote: Tony, I have seen rather a few similar but different things labeled as Illustris. But my feeling is that this is C. fallax (including C. bicolor and C. heterochroma). Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Avent To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:42 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id Pete: Before I delve into what I'm sure is some great bedtime reading, do you remember where Colocasia 'Illustris' landed. This one never seemed to quite fit comfortably into C. esculenta. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony at plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Peter Boyce wrote: Tony, There are a number of new taxa involved in this complex. I have seen some of the mss (reviewed a couple) but not all. The refs are: Colocasia gaoligongensis H.Li & C.L.Long -- Feddes Repert. 110(5-6): 423. 1999 (IK) Colocasia gongii C.L.Long & H.Li -- Feddes Repert. 111(7-8): 559. 2000 (IK) Colocasia lihengiae C.L.Long & K.M.Liu -- in Bot. Bull. Acad. Sin. (Taipei) 42(4): 313 (2001). (IK) Colocasia tibetensis J.T.Yin -- Ann. Bot. Fenn. 43(1): 53 (-56; fig. 1). 2006 [13 Mar 2006] Colocasia yunnanensis C.L.Long & X.Z.Cai -- Ann. Bot. Fenn. 43(2): 139 (-142; fig. 1). 2006 [26 Apr 2006] In addition there are a couple of obscure names that need to be accounted for: Colocasia fontanesii Schott -- Oesterr. Bot. Wochenbl. 4: 409. 1854 (IK) Colocasia formosana Hayata -- Icon. Pl. Formosan. 8: 133. 1919 [25 Mar 1919] (IK) Colocasia konishii Hayata -- Icon. Pl. Formosan. 8: 134. 1919 [25 Mar 1919] (IK) Colocasia kotoensis Hayata -- Icon. Pl. Formosan. 5: 247. 1915 [25 Nov 1915] (IK) Colocasia tonoimo Nakai -- in Ic. Pl. As. Or. iii. 231 (1940). (IK) Very best Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Avent" To: "Discussion of aroids" Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id Pete: I checked the flowers on our C. 'Fontanesii' and indeed the spathes do open quite a bit wider than the C. esculenta cultivars that we grow. Can you direct us to an article about the C.gaoligongenis/lihengiae complex. We found plants in Vietnam that seem to resemble C. gaoligongensis, but these look nothing like C. 'Fontanesii'. Please, tell us more. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony at plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Peter Boyce wrote: Tony, I am pretty sure that the 'Fontanesii' cultivar of C. esculenta is somewhere in the gaoligongenis/lihengiae complex defined by glossy leaves and a loosely stolonifeous habit combined with a short deep yellow spathe that opens rather wide. Very best Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Avent" To: "Discussion of aroids" Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id Peter: I almost missed your note about C. 'Fontanesii' not being a form of C. esculenta. Sorry to open a can of worms, but if it's not C. esculenta, what is it and why? Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony at plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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