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Peter Boyce wrote:
Tony:While we certainly like neat packages, those of us working in mega-richplaces are under no illusions that the species often haven't read the samerule books!Certainly 'species' such as A. macrorrizos and A. cucullata bend theboundaries a lot. What is of course interesting is that A. macrorrhizos(notwithstanding its doubtful 'pure' species status) is definitely related(and here we are talking molecularly) to some unquestionably 'good' species,such as A. portei and A. flabellifer, which poses even more difficulties. Itis also problematic to lalk about utilization of cultivars, especially thosethat are selections of what may themselves be cultivars, albeit solong-standing that they have effectively stabilized and function as species,even to the extent that they have lost the ability to hybridize with otherelements of what was once a single gene pool.Forgive me if I appear to be avoiding answering your suggestion. But thefact is that I am not sure HOW to answer. The bottom line is that, atpresent, we can only be sure that A. macrorrhizos and A. cucculata are NEVERfound away from human disturbance in 'habitat' and furthermore, away fromthe attention of horticulturists are remarkable morphologically stable.As a final thought on this, it is also important to remember that speciesframework, and the interspecific crossing is often in nature not just amatter of 'incompatibility'. Distribution, flowering time even down to thelevel of time of day, and how these barriers function to managepollinators, or select for a particular pollinator guild, are as much, ifnot more, a barrier than simple unrelatedness. If ever an example was neededof the role of pollinator guild niche selection, the orchids of theStanhopineae contain numerous examples.CheersPete-----Original Message-----From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com]On Behalf Of Tony AventSent: 05 September 2009 21:29To: Discussion of aroidsSubject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of ThailandPete:I thought it was botanists/taxonomists who like nice neat nomenclatural packages. These cultons sound instead like a botanical grab bag into which all of the unsorted material is dumped. If they are indeed selections of A. odora, then they certainly need cultivar names with A. odora as a species. If, as Lari Ann suggests, they are cultivars which cannot be assigned to a particular species, but are old hybrid groups or species whose origins have been obscured, they still need a cultivar name. Newly selected clones from them would then also need cultivar names. This actually would make these fit much better into neat nomenclatural packages. We would then know which new cultivar came from which old cultivar of say, A. macrorrhizos. I tend to like the analysis from plant breeders and can attest that outside of DNA, this is one of the best ways to tell what is related to what. That being said, has anyone done DNA analysis on this group?Peter Boyce wrote:
Tony:The x would indicate that they are stabilized hybrid species
(nothospecies)
as, for example, the situation with Cryptocoryne x purpurea (a
nothospecies
resulting from the stabilization of the naturally occurring hybrid C.cordata x C. griffithii) this is not the case. Alistair and are both
pretty
much convinced that A. cucullata and A. macrorrhizos are stabilied
cultigens
(cultons) of A. odora. In cultivation thus they COULD be cited a A.'Macrorrhizos' and A. 'Cucullata', but that would then lead to problems
with
cultons of these. Best to leave the situation as is.CheersPete-----Original Message-----From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com
[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com]
On Behalf Of Tony AventSent: 05 September 2009 00:45To: Discussion of aroidsSubject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of ThailandPete:I was just reading over your fascinating paper on Alocasia in Thailand about both Alocasia cucullata and A. macrorrhizos not being valid species. If this is the case and they are old cultigens, why would they not be properly written a Alocasia x macrorrhizos and Alocasia x cucullata with an appropriate cultivar name for the clone in commerce? Peter Boyce wrote:
Dear All, For anyone interested there is attached to this a recent paper on the /Alocasia/ in Thailand, including the description of a large-growing species from the Thai/Cambodian border. Peter------------------------------------------------------------------------_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
-- Tony AventPlant Delights Nursery @Juniper Level Botanic Garden9241 Sauls RoadRaleigh, North Carolina 27603 USAMinimum Winter Temps 0-5 FMaximum Summer Temps 95-105FUSDA Hardiness Zone 7bemail tony@plantdelights.comwebsite http://www.plantdelights.comphone 919 772-4794fax 919 772-4752"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent
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