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This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.
Re: Philodendron santa leopoldina
From: Betsy Feuerstein ecuador at midsouth.rr.com> on 2001.11.06 at 06:46:15(7740)|
I want to say something before this gets any further. To promulgate that
those who have, owe it to society to donate this plant to be cloned so
it will be saved in the wild is somewhat next to saying we are responsible
for it being rare in the first place. Since, to my knowledge, there is
little or now collection data for this plant, because it originally was
seen in the Brule Marx collection and bought in that area by three devout
collectors years ago, how on God's green earth would you know where to
re-establish it and then, where would the funding for such come from since
it is very costly to undertake such a task. Just putting something back
in the jungle in the area has a minuscule odds of survival. Are you going
to stay there and tend to it? Many a plant has been saved from extinction
by collectors and their genuine efforts to preserve in living form. To
imply that the only way to save this plant itself, is to clone it, I highly
doubt that one also. I am not saying that what you say does not have a
grain of possibility, because it does, but on the other hand, the proven
record of collectors preserving the perceived rare and little known, has
a pretty darn good record. Look at the old Anthurium splendidum, (I know
the name has been changed). It has hung around by cuttings. Look at Anthurium
reflexnervium, it is still around and actually it is still around in the
wild even though botancially speaking it was thought to be gone. Could
it be that a few of your premises are slanted to the desire to have the
plant and to genuinely save the plant in a specific way. Just maybe, those
of us collectors have the same desire to save but perhaps not by the same
means that you see. Perhaps at this moment, with all the discussion you
give, we can agree to disagree.
Funny, it is not the philosophical end that I see and that you see that
is at odds. First, it is the presumption that this does not exist in the
wild. How do you know that? Next, it is the presumption that the collector
should give, the meristem doers would give without any monetary reward
to them for their work and then that this would ever be successfully be
reintroduced to the wild while being made available to the public. Your
idea that the public would pay some large money for a cloned, mass produced
plant, is rather ify. When plants become available, the price goes down.
Many a plant has been cloned, come out on the market, sold, and never done
again. Why, because the market did not last for that plant or times were
such that it was not a high money maker and was let go. In that case, this
flurry was fleeting and often is. Those of us who have been out there in
the market place, watch plants come and go in the commercial realm and
it usually is those that we see as special and neat.
I would ask in these discussions if there is to be more, that the inference
of guilt for a difference of opinion, be left off. I do not feel guilty
for admiring the plant I just bought, for having no desire to cut it to
donate for someone else to reap the benefit of my hard earned expenditure.
Perhaps you are not aware of the very big risk of cutting philodendrons.
I have lost both pieces of philodendron cuttings many a time. And along
that line, many a cloning has failed. If at some point I want to take the
risk of cutting this plant or any plant I have, in order that I share it
with another, either for money or as a gift, it is my choice. I see that
choice for every other person who has it. If one of them decides to have
it cloned, I support their choice in that one also. If they decide to clone
it and reap their own harvest for that effort along with the risks, that
is also their choice. I hear a lot of promulgation of altruism by those
who have for the benefit of those who do not. I also hear that it is our
responsibility to make it available so that it can be introduced into the
wild when the place that it came from is not known and support system to
do such is non existent. I see that as a choice by the ones who have.
I feel certain they will come to an appropriate conclusion and it may differ
in form from those who want this plant for whatever reason or reasons.
"john s. smolowe" wrote:|
Gee, does the society really want to make $ by keeping
species close to extinction? I'd sure feel guilty if my rare plant died
after I refused to clone it - and God knows rare plants do die easily (that's
a major reason why they are rare). Hopefully someone can envision a plan
where everyone wins, including the owner and the beleaguered species.
Would it not be possible, for example, to give a commission on each
clone sold to the owner of the mother plant? That is what is done with
orchids that are mericloned. $5 on each plant sold for the first 120 plants
would cover the $600. Then the owner would have a free specimen, lots of
us would have babies, and extinction would be averted.
Menlo Park, CA
Betsy Feuerstein wrote:
I hear what you are saying, but I who just paid my
left arm to get this plant, would just as soon we wait for the next millennium
to do it. Those of us who have paid a fortune for it would think twice
about such most likely. Also, it certainly would cut in the society's pocketbook
take from the auctions. Just a personal come back to this discussion.
"john s. smolowe" wrote:
In his recent Aroidiana article on Philodendron
spiritus-sancti, aka Philodendron santa leopoldina (the rare, desirable
variety) Eduardo Goncalves suggests the species be made widely available
by micropropagation. I emailed him and he wrote back:
"I am just aware that there are no more
than 5 known plants of P. spiritus-sancti in the wild. It can be considered
almost extinct in the wild. I would love to see it being micropropagated,
because it will remain as an amazing plant, even if it was being sold
K-Mart! Unfortunately, I do not have the facilities here, and I also
have a living plant of it myself. That collected plant were donated
private conservatory that has the proper infra-structure to grow it.
Well, I think there are
more plants of P. spiritus-sancti in the US than in Brazil (even considering
the wild specimens!)."
I'd be interested in contributing to a fund to make that happen. Does
anyone know the practical details? I suppose we'd have to find and deal
with an appropriate lab, and also find a willing owner of the correct plant.
Menlo Park, CA
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