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  self heading Philodendron ID
From: leu242 at yahoo.com (Eric Schmidt) on 2007.12.26 at 13:59:45(16858)
I found this clump of a self heading Philodendron in
an older neighborhood. Can't tell if it is a form of
P. bipinnatifidum (selloum) or a different species or
hybrid. Any ideas?

http://tinyurl.com/yu2yxr

Eric

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From: abri1973 at wp.pl (Marek Argent) on 2007.12.29 at 23:51:55(16863)
Hi,

For me it looks like Ph. xanadu

Marek

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From: criswick at spiceisle.com (criswick) on 2007.12.31 at 14:21:22(16870)
Xanadu gone wild ! No way is that Xanadu. I think it resembles somewhat P.
x evansii, an invalid name that might better be written P. 'Evansii'. This
is much seen in older Miami gardens, but the one in the photo seems more
compact and in some way different.

John.

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From: chammer at cfl.rr.com (Bluesea) on 2008.01.01 at 10:07:30(16876)
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From: leu242 at yahoo.com (Eric Schmidt) on 2008.01.02 at 06:45:31(16879)
Its definitely not P. xanadu. These plants are 5-6 ft.
tall. The leaves are 2-3 ft. long.

Eric

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From: chammer at cfl.rr.com (Bluesea) on 2008.01.03 at 16:30:20(16883)
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From: samarak at gizmoworks.com (Steve Marak) on 2008.01.03 at 16:48:41(16885)
Russ,

Sorry, I'm to blame. Aroid-L is (and always has been) moderated, so posts
don't go out until a moderator approves them. At the moment, I'm the only
moderator, so if I am for any reason unable to get to the list for a
while, things sit.

While the delay can be annoying, the up side is that, as well as
preventing you guys from seeing a lot of spam over the years, it has given
a surprisingly large number of people a chance to recall something they
didn't really want posted - and which in some cases they didn't even know
they had sent to be posted.

Steve

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From: chammer at cfl.rr.com (Bluesea) on 2008.01.03 at 17:07:49(16886)
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From: criswick at spiceisle.com (criswick) on 2008.01.03 at 17:35:16(16888)
I certainly don't think it could be P. pinnatifidum, which I know well. It
grows in Venezuela and Trinidad. Very tropical in its requirements, I
imagine.

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From: ju-bo at msn.com (ju-bo at msn.com) on 2008.01.04 at 02:57:05(16893)
----------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 06:45:31 -0800
> From: leu242 at yahoo.com
> To: aroid-l at gizmoworks.com
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] self heading Philodendron ID

Dear Eric,

After tossing your photo around, some buddys and I have come to the conclusion that the plants in question are P.X "Eichelrii" (pronounced Eck-ler-ii) which together with P. X "Evansii" are a couple of the OLD Meconostigma (self-heading) hybrids made back in the 50`s (?) and 60`s. Plants with this name are clearly pictured in old Exoticas. It must have great resistance to cold, and it would be greatly appreciated if you could re-visit these plants now that the severe cold snap has passed and give us a report on how they fared.

The Best,

Julius

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From: denis at skg.com (Denis) on 2008.01.04 at 08:46:32(16895)
Not Pinnatifidum....P. pinnatifidum does not make a clump this large and
its leaves always point upwards, whorld around short fat trunk. Not P.
bipinnatifidum as leaves are only once pinnate. Best bet is 'evansii' or
other hybrid variety...closer view needed to see petiole and trunk to id
to species, but if it is hybrid, a close aproximation is all you can
come up with.

Denis

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From: hermine at endangeredspecies.com (hermine) on 2008.01.04 at 13:24:17(16897)
At 08:46 AM 1/4/2008, Denis wrote:
>Not Pinnatifidum....P. pinnatifidum does not make a clump this large
>and its leaves always point upwards, whorld around short fat trunk.
>Not P. bipinnatifidum as leaves are only once pinnate. Best bet is
>'evansii' or other hybrid variety...closer view needed to see
>petiole and trunk to id to species, but if it is hybrid, a close
>aproximation is all you can come up with.

is not evansii an hybrid made by that fellow Morgan "Bill" Evans
who had so much to do with various botanical theme parks in
California and Florida???

hermine

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From: leu242 at yahoo.com (Eric Schmidt) on 2008.01.04 at 15:07:46(16898)
We only got down to 31F for an hour or so, so I doubt
the plants were bothered at all. Judging from the size
of the clump and age of the neighborhood they were
probably planted early to mid 1970's. They would have
survived the 3 big freezes in the 1980s, esp. 12/89
when there were 2 nights at 19-20F here. They probably
froze to the ground as a majority of the P.
bipinnatifidum and P. x evansii did at that time.

I thought P. eichleri was a species not a hybrid. Kew
lists it as a synonum for P. undulatum.

Eric

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From: chammer at cfl.rr.com (Bluesea) on 2008.01.04 at 16:39:37(16899)
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From: criswick at spiceisle.com (criswick) on 2008.01.04 at 17:28:09(16901)
Dear All,

Adam Black has offered to go and visit a similar-looking specimen
in Ocala, to see how it took the 20 degrees cold.

John.

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From: jmdeluca05 at earthlink.net (jmdeluca05 at earthlink.net) on 2008.01.05 at 01:10:57(16904)
You're lucky then, Russ. It was 28 degrees here in Plant City, FL when I left for work. Not sure how long it was
at that temp, but I took a hit on my Aroids and tropicals.....the ones I could not cover. From what I could tell, it looks like mostly
leaf damage, but I wasn't home in time yesterday to see what the second day brought or to uncover anything. This included my
Alocasia Macs which are generally pretty hardy.

Martina

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From: abri1973 at wp.pl (Marek Argent) on 2008.01.05 at 01:48:37(16906)
Degrees Celsius of Fahrenhreit:

Marek

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From: ju-bo at msn.com (ju-bo at msn.com) on 2008.01.05 at 05:18:35(16907)
----------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:07:46 -0800
> From: leu242 at yahoo.com
> To: aroid-l at gizmoworks.com
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] self heading Philodendron ID

Dear Eric,

Thanks, please keep us informed as to any cold damage.
First off, Abrimaal`s opinion is that this large plant is either P. xanadu or P. pinnatifidium, but it is deff. not either of these two species---P. xanadu is a substantially smaller plant with MANY differences, and P. pinnatifidium is NOT a Meconostigma and is a tropical species with many differences and so would not survive the cold where this plant is growing.
(When in doubt, read the instructions! :--)!!
In the most recent key to the plants in the Philodendron subgenus Meconostigma, in Aroideana Vol. 25 of 2002, Dr. Eduardo Goncalves lists 19 ''good'' species in this subgenus, and P. eichlerii is not listed as one of them. I have seen a photograph of a plant that is pretty much a perfect match for Eric`s pic. in an old Exotica labeled as P. eichlerii, next to it or at least on the same page was P. X evansii.
I will continue to ask around, but I am pretty certain that P. eichlerii is one of the old hybrids.
I am familiar w/ P. undulatum, and this photo of Eric`s is certainly NOT P. undulatum, which is one of the smaller and compact-growing species of Meconostigma, and has very distinctive, long and thorn-like squamules surrounding the base of each petiole, persisting on the bare rhizome. It is the only Meconostigma sp. with these thorn-like squamules.

The Best,

Good Growing,

Julius

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From: criswick at spiceisle.com (criswick) on 2008.01.05 at 11:04:58(16910)
Well, being an American in America I assume he means Fahrenheit. Also, as
you know, 20 degrees Celsius would not endanger the most tropical of plants.

John.

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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.01.05 at 12:00:25(16911)
Dear Eric,

Aloha. I agree with Julius on all counts.

Philodendron undulatum is very distinctive with
numerous, persistent, needle-like , half inch to three
quarter inch, intravaginal squamules on the stem. It
is very different from the plant I know as P.
eichleri.

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From: chammer at cfl.rr.com (Bluesea) on 2008.01.05 at 13:12:48(16913)
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From: criswick at spiceisle.com (criswick) on 2008.01.05 at 17:56:08(16919)
Dear All,

Here are the illustrations from Exotica. P. eichleri is presented
as a species, while it's supposed hybrid with P. undulatum is at right.

John.

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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.01.06 at 08:05:06(16921)
Dear Eric,

Aloha. Offline, Julius forwarded me a scan from a
fellow aroider of Simon Mayo's discussion of
Philodendron eichleri.

Mayo seems to rely heavily on leaf morphology in
sinking Philodendron eichleri into synonomy. He had
reservations and he does acknowledge the need for more
complete collection series. There are many questions
I have that cannot be resolved until the description
is studied and herbaria sheets compared. There is a
big need for additional fieldwork and complete fertile
collections with stems collected or photographed with
ecological data, etc.

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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.01.07 at 09:41:13(16929)
Dear John and Eric, et. al.,

Aloha and thank you for sending over the Exotica
photos for us to review.

Exotica is a very helpful photobook that illustrates
plants and identifications assembled by Graf. These
identifications are often incorrect and have little
botanical standing, but this book is often the only
clue to plants out there in the horticulture world.
Regarding the so-called Philodendron eichleri and its
hybrid with Philodendron undulatum...superficially one
could match several plants favorably from these
photos. It is a good starting point and the curious
can go forth and match the scientific literature with
this and other evidence.

Those aroiders and lurkers out there that want more
information about this self-header and other
Philodendron in the subgenus Meconostigma should refer
to Aroidiana, Vol. 25...that Julius recommended in an
earlier thread. That article is a good reference with
a revised key to the subgenus. It shows good photos
of the intravaginal squamulae that is such a good
character in understanding this group....some have
them then lose them, or they are persistent. Of
course when identifying plants we use a suite of
characters, so the use of only one character is not
diagnostic in most cases....especially in variable or
polymorphic species.

Aloha,

Leland

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From: leu242 at yahoo.com (Eric Schmidt) on 2008.01.07 at 10:15:31(16931)
I will try to get back there soon for more photos and
maybe a cutting if the owner allows.

Here is our P. eichleri here at Leu Gardens;

http://tinyurl.com/3ydwvj

and P. undulatum

http://tinyurl.com/3bmocr

We also have P. 'Soledad' which is an apparent hybrid
but I have never been able to find the parents;

http://tinyurl.com/2ndl35

http://tinyurl.com/239rj7

http://tinyurl.com/3d2b24

Eric

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From: criswick at spiceisle.com (criswick) on 2008.01.08 at 04:29:05(16933)
Eric, I believe that P. 'Soledad' is a hybrid from Rancho Soledad in
California. Please see their website. Maybe they could tell you about the
parents?

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