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This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.
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How old are the aroids?
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From: botanist at malesiana.com (Peter Boyce) on 2008.07.29 at 06:55:20(18280)
As part of our aroid research here in Malaysia we are beginning to turn our thoughts to the age of our favourite family by, among other ways, analysing the modern distributions of related ever-wet or perhumid tropical forest herbs with restricted fruit/seed dispersal syndromes (e.g., insect dispersed short-viability seeds), such as Schismatoglottis sens lat., and then looking at tectonic plate movements to speculate about when the currently disparate taxa (or their hypothetical ancestor/s) were adjacent on a single landmass that permitted dispersal into areas that are now widely distributed (i.e., South America, Africa, the Indian Subcontinent & Sunda/Wallacea/Melanesia).
While clearly this method involves severe limitations and requires a rather uncomfortable number of assumptions about the origin and more criticall the evolutionary stability of dispersal systems, and of course much needs to be tested post-hypothesis by using more robust techniques, to date the 'results' are fascinating, to say the least.
Perhaps for us (working as we do on a group with one of the most complex inflorescence morphologies in the family, if not in the entire plant kingdom and thus using orthodoxy an 'advanced' and by inference 'recent' group) the most exciting aspect of these ponderings has been that while focus on the age of the aroids has tended to indicate that the bisexually-flowered genera with 'primitive' paleoherb growth morphology (in essence the helophytic lasioids - as championed by Hay & Mabberly) or the equally 'primitive' Proto-aroids (that is to say the Orontiodeae + Gymnostachyoideae) are basal-most in the modern lineage and, particularly given recent fossil publications on late Cretaceous orontiods giving a modern subfamily origin at least 70mya, closest in appearance to the ancestral 'protoaraceae' it now seems that the schismatoids (that this Schismatoglottis sens lat.+ Cryptocoryne) share a common ancestorat least 150 myo and given their modern floral complexity and their unisexual-flowered 'advanced' inflores
cences raises issues about the aroids not only in terms of whether bisexual flowers are indeed 'primitive' but also in terms of just how old IS this family.
Currently there are no indispudibly confirmed angiopserm fossils from earlier than the early Cretaceous; however already there a modern subfamily of the aroids from almost as early as the earliest known flowering plant fossils and indirect evidence that at least one modern tribe of the family has its origins from slightly earlier and THAT tribe is currently considerd to have (in modern taxa) one of the most complex inflorescence morphologies in the family.... food for thought.
Peter & Sin Yeng
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From: ted.held at us.henkel.com (ted.held at us.henkel.com) on 2008.07.29 at 16:34:04(18286)
Peter and Sin Yeng,
Not only are your comments food for thought, they are astonishing. You are
hinting that aroids are as old as any flowering plants, and you also
believe that they are at least as old as the earliest surviving angiosperm
fossils.
Of course, we all know that if you want to be a fossil it helps to have
hard, durable parts that can be preserved long enough to be covered in
sediment and whatnot. I know from my own plants that preservation of
deceased material in warm, humid environments for more than even a couple
of hours is problematic. This means that the existential history of many
aroids and other life forms can have proceeded along for eons under the
fossil radar. Is this a way of teasing out some of the secret history of
the living world?
I am intrigued by your methodology. This thread also meshes with our other
recent discussion of the threatened-species nature of taxonomists, since
you seem to rely on inferences based on traditional taxonomy. Maybe if
young potential botanists think that there's more to it than pressing and
cataloging dry old plant parts they would more readily sign up. Also,
funding is nine parts show biz, so conjectures like this might stir up a
few bucks for deserving researchers.
Please keep me (us) updated on your thinking.
Ted.
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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.07.29 at 16:44:56(18287)
Dear Pete,
Aloha.
Wonderful line of thought...and it proves that we have so much more to learn.
Just a question...where have the earliest aroid fossils been collected? Do these preserve reproductive structures? Are you aware of the earliest fossils that preserve such structures and what do they reveal?
Aloha,
Leland
| +More | |
--- On Mon, 7/28/08, Peter Boyce wrote:
> From: Peter Boyce
> Subject: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
> To: "Discussion of aroids"
> Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:55 PM
> As part of our aroid research here in Malaysia we are
> beginning to turn our thoughts to the age of our favourite
> family by, among other ways, analysing the modern
> distributions of related ever-wet or perhumid tropical
> forest herbs with restricted fruit/seed dispersal syndromes
> (e.g., insect dispersed short-viability seeds), such as
> Schismatoglottis sens lat., and then looking at tectonic
> plate movements to speculate about when the currently
> disparate taxa (or their hypothetical ancestor/s) were
> adjacent on a single landmass that permitted dispersal into
> areas that are now widely distributed (i.e., South America,
> Africa, the Indian Subcontinent &
> Sunda/Wallacea/Melanesia).
>
> While clearly this method involves severe limitations and
> requires a rather uncomfortable number of assumptions about
> the origin and more criticall the evolutionary stability of
> dispersal systems, and of course much needs to be tested
> post-hypothesis by using more robust techniques, to date
> the 'results' are fascinating, to say the least.
>
> Perhaps for us (working as we do on a group with one of the
> most complex inflorescence morphologies in the family, if
> not in the entire plant kingdom and thus using orthodoxy an
> 'advanced' and by inference 'recent' group)
> the most exciting aspect of these ponderings has been that
> while focus on the age of the aroids has tended to indicate
> that the bisexually-flowered genera with 'primitive'
> paleoherb growth morphology (in essence the helophytic
> lasioids - as championed by Hay & Mabberly) or the
> equally 'primitive' Proto-aroids (that is to say
> the Orontiodeae + Gymnostachyoideae) are basal-most in the
> modern lineage and, particularly given recent fossil
> publications on late Cretaceous orontiods giving a modern
> subfamily origin at least 70mya, closest in appearance to
> the ancestral 'protoaraceae' it now seems that the
> schismatoids (that this Schismatoglottis sens lat.+
> Cryptocoryne) share a common ancestorat least 150 myo and
> given their modern floral complexity and their
> unisexual-flowered 'advanced' inflorescences raises
> issues about the aroids not only in terms of whether
> bisexual flowers are indeed 'primitive' but also in
> terms of just how old IS this family.
>
> Currently there are no indispudibly confirmed angiopserm
> fossils from earlier than the early Cretaceous; however
> already there a modern subfamily of the aroids from almost
> as early as the earliest known flowering plant fossils and
> indirect evidence that at least one modern tribe of the
> family has its origins from slightly earlier and THAT tribe
> is currently considerd to have (in modern taxa) one of the
> most complex inflorescence morphologies in the family....
> food for thought.
>
> Peter & Sin
> Yeng_______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
|
|
From: crogers at ecoanalysts.com (Christopher Rogers) on 2008.07.30 at 17:37:43(18295)
Hello Peter and Sin Yeng,
I understand your difficulties! I wrote a paper a few years ago revising a
genus of freshwater shrimp. There are three species in the genus, all found
in rain pools on a very specific geomorphic surface: one species in North
America, one in South America, and one in Europe and north Africa. The
geomorphic settings are all very old, and at one time before continental
drift, were all near each other at the equator. Using this I could estimate
the age of the genus. So here is my question: are any ?primitive? aroid taxa
limited to certain geomorphic features that can be traced through history?
It may give you a means of estimating evolution rates for some higher taxa
levels.
Grins,
Christopher
| +More | |
D. Christopher Rogers
Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
((,///////////=======<
EcoAnalysts, Inc.
1.530.756.4481
1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
1307 "L" Street
Davis, CA 95616
USA
?Invertebrate Taxonomy
?Endangered Species
?Ecological Studies
?Bioassessment
?Invasive Species
?Plankton
?Phycology
Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ? Joplin, Missouri
Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
ecoanalysts.com
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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.07.30 at 20:39:40(18297)
Dear Ted, Sin Yeng, and Pete, etc.,
Aloha.
Sounds like we need to find an Early Cretaceous or older, aroid lagerstatten. Lagerstatten are fossil sites of exceptional preservation or completeness. China is discovering quite a few new sites... Perhaps someone needs to be looking at new Jurassic floras.
Aloha,
Leland
| +More | |
--- On Tue, 7/29/08, ted.held at us.henkel.com wrote:
> From: ted.held at us.henkel.com
> Subject: [Aroid-l] Indeed: How old are the aroids?
> To: "Discussion of aroids"
> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 6:34 AM
> Peter and Sin Yeng,
>
> Not only are your comments food for thought, they are
> astonishing. You are
> hinting that aroids are as old as any flowering plants, and
> you also
> believe that they are at least as old as the earliest
> surviving angiosperm
> fossils.
>
> Of course, we all know that if you want to be a fossil it
> helps to have
> hard, durable parts that can be preserved long enough to be
> covered in
> sediment and whatnot. I know from my own plants that
> preservation of
> deceased material in warm, humid environments for more than
> even a couple
> of hours is problematic. This means that the existential
> history of many
> aroids and other life forms can have proceeded along for
> eons under the
> fossil radar. Is this a way of teasing out some of the
> secret history of
> the living world?
>
> I am intrigued by your methodology. This thread also meshes
> with our other
> recent discussion of the threatened-species nature of
> taxonomists, since
> you seem to rely on inferences based on traditional
> taxonomy. Maybe if
> young potential botanists think that there's more to it
> than pressing and
> cataloging dry old plant parts they would more readily sign
> up. Also,
> funding is nine parts show biz, so conjectures like this
> might stir up a
> few bucks for deserving researchers.
>
> Please keep me (us) updated on your thinking.
>
> Ted._______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
|
|
From: botanist at malesiana.com (Peter Boyce) on 2008.07.30 at 23:02:39(18298)
Hi Julius, Leland, Ted & friends
The Pistia-like thing was Cobbania corrugata, indeed a pistia-like aroid
from the lower Cretaceous (subfamily Cobbanoideae). There is another
intriguing plant, Limnobiophyllum scutatum (Limnobiophylloideae) also from
the Cretaceous. What is NOT known about eiher of these is these genera have
bisexual flowers (as in Lemnoideae) or unisexual flowers as in Aroideae
including Pistia.
Pete
| +More |
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Cc: "Leyland Miyano"
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:13 PM
Subject: FW: [Aroid-l] Indeed: How old are the aroids?
Dear Friends,
Pete and Sin Yeng,
I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the age and origins of aroids!
Thanks ever so much for sharing this information with all of us!!
Ted and Leyland--I know that there have been publications on fossil aroids,
one on a Pista-like plant which I saw the actual drawings and photos of
(leaves, roots, stolons and everything!!), as Josef Bogner was sort of
''correcting'' them for the lady author when we were up at MOBOT for that
aroid conference, Pete was there. Also, I contributed the seeds of several
genera of Lasioids to her at a later date, and she used photos of them,
comparing them to fossils in her paper on fossil aroid seeds. There is
mention of the then-known fossil aroids in TGOA, and I believe strides have
been made since then in identifying additional material. I know that Josef
Bogner was and may still be deeply interested in investigations along these
lines, I GUESS a good google search may turn up additional info. on these
most interesting fossil anceators of the plants we so love!
The Best,
Julius
>> Peter and Sin Yeng,
>
> Not only are your comments food for thought, they are astonishing. You are
> hinting that aroids are as old as any flowering plants, and you also
> believe that they are at least as old as the earliest surviving angiosperm
> fossils.
>
> Of course, we all know that if you want to be a fossil it helps to have
> hard, durable parts that can be preserved long enough to be covered in
> sediment and whatnot. I know from my own plants that preservation of
> deceased material in warm, humid environments for more than even a couple
> of hours is problematic. This means that the existential history of many
> aroids and other life forms can have proceeded along for eons under the
> fossil radar. Is this a way of teasing out some of the secret history of
> the living world?
>
> I am intrigued by your methodology. This thread also meshes with our other
> recent discussion of the threatened-species nature of taxonomists, since
> you seem to rely on inferences based on traditional taxonomy. Maybe if
> young potential botanists think that there's more to it than pressing and
> cataloging dry old plant parts they would more readily sign up. Also,
> funding is nine parts show biz, so conjectures like this might stir up a
> few bucks for deserving researchers.
>
> Please keep me (us) updated on your thinking.
>
> Ted.
|
|
From: botanist at malesiana.com (Peter Boyce) on 2008.07.31 at 06:54:43(18300)
Hi Christopher,
The 'best fit' for this is the Lasoideae with Anaphllopsis on the Guiana Shield, Lasimorpha in West Africa Anaphyllum in S. India
very best
Peter
| +More |
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Rogers
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 1:37 AM
Subject: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
Hello Peter and Sin Yeng,
I understand your difficulties! I wrote a paper a few years ago revising a genus of freshwater shrimp. There are three species in the genus, all found in rain pools on a very specific geomorphic surface: one species in North America, one in South America, and one in Europe and north Africa. The geomorphic settings are all very old, and at one time before continental drift, were all near each other at the equator. Using this I could estimate the age of the genus. So here is my question: are any ?primitive? aroid taxa limited to certain geomorphic features that can be traced through history? It may give you a means of estimating evolution rates for some higher taxa levels.
Grins,
Christopher
D. Christopher Rogers
Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
((,///////////=======<
EcoAnalysts, Inc.
1.530.756.4481
1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
1307 "L" Street
Davis, CA 95616
USA
?Invertebrate Taxonomy
?Endangered Species
?Ecological Studies
?Bioassessment
?Invasive Species
?Plankton
?Phycology
Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ? Joplin, Missouri
Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
ecoanalysts.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: epiphyte1 at earthlink.net (Adam Black) on 2008.07.31 at 16:35:23(18306)
Leland and all interested,
Aside from a lagerstatten site, don't forget about paleopalynological research analyzing fossil pollen, which as understand it would be more reliably preserved than other plant tissues. Well preserved leaves and other parts would of course be more intereting to visualize, but fossil pollen would be more likely to indicate the presence of aroids in paleoenvironments not conducive the preservation of leaves and other parts.
See the following, an interesting paper on pollen of an early Cretaceous Aroid from Portugal
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artidS4535
Also here is an abstract of a late Cretaceous Aroid infructescense (J. Bogner one of the authors)
http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rparticle/AbstractTemplateServlet?journal=cjb&volume&year=&issue=&msno°5-033&calyLang=eng
Also of interest, an Eocene Philodendron sect Meconostigma from western Tennessee:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2442000
...and another paper on fossil Araceae pollen:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/815564h77w6v8484/
These all jumped out at me on a quick Google search - but there is probably more info out there. I'm interested in fossil vertebrates of the Tertiary and Pleistocene and in research have noticed fairly regulary references to Tertiary aged Aroids, especially in the Eocene floras, but never looked earlier than that until now.
Adam Black
| +More |
-----Original Message-----
>From: brian lee
>Sent: Jul 30, 2008 4:39 PM
>To: Discussion of aroids
>Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Indeed: How old are the aroids?
>
>Dear Ted, Sin Yeng, and Pete, etc.,
>
>Aloha.
>
>Sounds like we need to find an Early Cretaceous or older, aroid lagerstatten. Lagerstatten are fossil sites of exceptional preservation or completeness. China is discovering quite a few new sites... Perhaps someone needs to be looking at new Jurassic floras.
>
>Aloha,
>
>Leland
>
>
>--- On Tue, 7/29/08, ted.held at us.henkel.com wrote:
>
>> From: ted.held at us.henkel.com
>> Subject: [Aroid-l] Indeed: How old are the aroids?
>> To: "Discussion of aroids"
>> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 6:34 AM
>> Peter and Sin Yeng,
>>
>> Not only are your comments food for thought, they are
>> astonishing. You are
>> hinting that aroids are as old as any flowering plants, and
>> you also
>> believe that they are at least as old as the earliest
>> surviving angiosperm
>> fossils.
>>
>> Of course, we all know that if you want to be a fossil it
>> helps to have
>> hard, durable parts that can be preserved long enough to be
>> covered in
>> sediment and whatnot. I know from my own plants that
>> preservation of
>> deceased material in warm, humid environments for more than
>> even a couple
>> of hours is problematic. This means that the existential
>> history of many
>> aroids and other life forms can have proceeded along for
>> eons under the
>> fossil radar. Is this a way of teasing out some of the
>> secret history of
>> the living world?
>>
>> I am intrigued by your methodology. This thread also meshes
>> with our other
>> recent discussion of the threatened-species nature of
>> taxonomists, since
>> you seem to rely on inferences based on traditional
>> taxonomy. Maybe if
>> young potential botanists think that there's more to it
>> than pressing and
>> cataloging dry old plant parts they would more readily sign
>> up. Also,
>> funding is nine parts show biz, so conjectures like this
>> might stir up a
>> few bucks for deserving researchers.
>>
>> Please keep me (us) updated on your thinking.
>>
>> Ted._______________________________________________
>> Aroid-L mailing list
>> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
>> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Aroid-L mailing list
>Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
>http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
|
|
From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.07.31 at 17:22:42(18307)
Dear Christopher and all,
Aloha.
Wow. There must have been some sort of refugia all that time to preserve your geomorphic features for the habitat of your shrimp. I would assume that is rare. What is the geologic history of the sedimentation or other processes of the region? Are we talking about Anostracan crustacea? I know you wrote a paper on fairy shrimp in Minas Gerais...could you resend me the pdf off forum?...I seem to have lost that to virtual world. Anostracans have a geologic history from the Lower Devonian, according to my Treatise on Invertebrate Paleontology. I do not recall the age of your geomorphic features...could you refresh my poor memory? I am most familiar with the Santana formation fossils of the Late Cretaceous of Brazil...when shallow seas or lacustrine environments existed....and the connection to African fossils of similar age are proven. I am assuming your geomorphic features predate that....perhaps by a significant period.
This is a very interesting point you bring up regarding tectonic movements and botanical evolutionary trends. Are there many references on the biogeography of the aroids?
Aloha,
Leland
| +More | |
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Christopher Rogers wrote:
> From: Christopher Rogers
> Subject: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
> To: "'Discussion of aroids'"
> Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 7:37 AM
> Hello Peter and Sin Yeng,
>
>
>
> I understand your difficulties! I wrote a paper a few years
> ago revising a
> genus of freshwater shrimp. There are three species in the
> genus, all found
> in rain pools on a very specific geomorphic surface: one
> species in North
> America, one in South America, and one in Europe and north
> Africa. The
> geomorphic settings are all very old, and at one time
> before continental
> drift, were all near each other at the equator. Using this
> I could estimate
> the age of the genus. So here is my question: are any
> ?primitive? aroid taxa
> limited to certain geomorphic features that can be traced
> through history?
> It may give you a means of estimating evolution rates for
> some higher taxa
> levels.
>
>
>
> Grins,
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>
>
> D. Christopher Rogers
>
> Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
>
> ((,///////////=======<
>
>
>
> EcoAnalysts, Inc.
>
> 1.530.756.4481
>
> 1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
>
> 1307 "L" Street
>
> Davis, CA 95616
>
> USA
>
>
>
> ?Invertebrate Taxonomy
>
> ?Endangered Species
>
> ?Ecological Studies
>
> ?Bioassessment
>
> ?Invasive Species
>
> ?Plankton
>
> ?Phycology
>
>
>
> Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ?
> Joplin, Missouri
>
> Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
>
> ecoanalysts.com_______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
|
|
From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.08.02 at 18:52:58(18314)
Dear Adam and all,
Aloha.
Thank you for forwarding this information. From what I read, the fossil aroid record is sparse and the speculative interpretation is high. Very interesting. I do not know much about palynology and less about paleopalynology...it amazes me that so much information can be extracted from these tiny grains.
Being an optimist and the fact that many paleontologists are looking at Jurassic deposits, I am still hopeful that earlier proto-aroids will be discovered. It seems improbable that such plants suddenly appeared so fully formed in the Early Cretaceous. Time and new discoveries will tell.
I was very interested in the article you sent on a so-called Philodendron subgenus, Meconostigma...Philodendron limnestes, Dilcher & Daghlian 1977. I found out that Mayo, in 1991, thought this fossil was closer to the genus, Typhonodorum , tribe Peltandeae based on the venation and cuticular features.
Thanks again for the interesting leads.
Aloha,
Leland
| +More | |
--- On Thu, 7/31/08, Adam Black wrote:
> From: Adam Black
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Indeed: How old are the aroids?
> To: "Discussion of aroids"
> Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 6:35 AM
> Leland and all interested,
>
> Aside from a lagerstatten site, don't forget about
> paleopalynological research analyzing fossil pollen, which
> as understand it would be more reliably preserved than other
> plant tissues. Well preserved leaves and other parts would
> of course be more intereting to visualize, but fossil pollen
> would be more likely to indicate the presence of aroids in
> paleoenvironments not conducive the preservation of leaves
> and other parts.
>
> See the following, an interesting paper on pollen of an
> early Cretaceous Aroid from Portugal
>
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artidS4535
>
> Also here is an abstract of a late Cretaceous Aroid
> infructescense (J. Bogner one of the authors)
>
> http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rparticle/AbstractTemplateServlet?journal=cjb&volume&year=&issue=&msno°5-033&calyLang=eng
>
> Also of interest, an Eocene Philodendron sect Meconostigma
> from western Tennessee:
>
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/2442000
>
> ...and another paper on fossil Araceae pollen:
>
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/815564h77w6v8484/
>
> These all jumped out at me on a quick Google search - but
> there is probably more info out there. I'm interested in
> fossil vertebrates of the Tertiary and Pleistocene and in
> research have noticed fairly regulary references to Tertiary
> aged Aroids, especially in the Eocene floras, but never
> looked earlier than that until now.
>
> Adam Black
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: brian lee
> >Sent: Jul 30, 2008 4:39 PM
> >To: Discussion of aroids
> >Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Indeed: How old are the aroids?
> >
> >Dear Ted, Sin Yeng, and Pete, etc.,
> >
> >Aloha.
> >
> >Sounds like we need to find an Early Cretaceous or
> older, aroid lagerstatten. Lagerstatten are fossil sites of
> exceptional preservation or completeness. China is
> discovering quite a few new sites... Perhaps someone needs
> to be looking at new Jurassic floras.
> >
> >Aloha,
> >
> >Leland
> >
> >
> >--- On Tue, 7/29/08, ted.held at us.henkel.com
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: ted.held at us.henkel.com
>
> >> Subject: [Aroid-l] Indeed: How old are the aroids?
> >> To: "Discussion of aroids"
>
> >> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 6:34 AM
> >> Peter and Sin Yeng,
> >>
> >> Not only are your comments food for thought, they
> are
> >> astonishing. You are
> >> hinting that aroids are as old as any flowering
> plants, and
> >> you also
> >> believe that they are at least as old as the
> earliest
> >> surviving angiosperm
> >> fossils.
> >>
> >> Of course, we all know that if you want to be a
> fossil it
> >> helps to have
> >> hard, durable parts that can be preserved long
> enough to be
> >> covered in
> >> sediment and whatnot. I know from my own plants
> that
> >> preservation of
> >> deceased material in warm, humid environments for
> more than
> >> even a couple
> >> of hours is problematic. This means that the
> existential
> >> history of many
> >> aroids and other life forms can have proceeded
> along for
> >> eons under the
> >> fossil radar. Is this a way of teasing out some of
> the
> >> secret history of
> >> the living world?
> >>
> >> I am intrigued by your methodology. This thread
> also meshes
> >> with our other
> >> recent discussion of the threatened-species nature
> of
> >> taxonomists, since
> >> you seem to rely on inferences based on
> traditional
> >> taxonomy. Maybe if
> >> young potential botanists think that there's
> more to it
> >> than pressing and
> >> cataloging dry old plant parts they would more
> readily sign
> >> up. Also,
> >> funding is nine parts show biz, so conjectures
> like this
> >> might stir up a
> >> few bucks for deserving researchers.
> >>
> >> Please keep me (us) updated on your thinking.
> >>
> >>
> Ted._______________________________________________
> >> Aroid-L mailing list
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Aroid-L mailing list
> >Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
|
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From: crogers at ecoanalysts.com (Christopher Rogers) on 2008.08.05 at 15:53:14(18328)
Thanks, Peter!
Is that sufficient to establish a molecular ?clock??
D. Christopher Rogers
| +More | |
Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
((,///////////=======<
EcoAnalysts, Inc.
1.530.756.4481
1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
1307 "L" Street
Davis, CA 95616
USA
?Invertebrate Taxonomy
?Endangered Species
?Ecological Studies
?Bioassessment
?Invasive Species
?Plankton
?Phycology
Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ? Joplin, Missouri
Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
ecoanalysts.com
From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter Boyce
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:55 PM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
Hi Christopher,
The 'best fit' for this is the Lasoideae with Anaphllopsis on the Guiana Shield, Lasimorpha in West Africa Anaphyllum in S. India
very best
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Rogers
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 1:37 AM
Subject: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
Hello Peter and Sin Yeng,
I understand your difficulties! I wrote a paper a few years ago revising a genus of freshwater shrimp. There are three species in the genus, all found in rain pools on a very specific geomorphic surface: one species in North America, one in South America, and one in Europe and north Africa. The geomorphic settings are all very old, and at one time before continental drift, were all near each other at the equator. Using this I could estimate the age of the genus. So here is my question: are any ?primitive? aroid taxa limited to certain geomorphic features that can be traced through history? It may give you a means of estimating evolution rates for some higher taxa levels.
Grins,
Christopher
D. Christopher Rogers
Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
((,///////////=======<
EcoAnalysts, Inc.
1.530.756.4481
1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
1307 "L" Street
Davis, CA 95616
USA
?Invertebrate Taxonomy
?Endangered Species
?Ecological Studies
?Bioassessment
?Invasive Species
?Plankton
?Phycology
Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ? Joplin, Missouri
Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
ecoanalysts.com
_____
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: crogers at ecoanalysts.com (Christopher Rogers) on 2008.08.05 at 16:03:19(18329)
Aloha, Leland!
I will send you that, the biogeographical papers and some of my other papers off line. You are welcome to any of my publications, of course!
Yes, they are my beloved anostracans, notostracans and clam shrimps as well. I also have the book you mentioned with the chapters by Paul Tasch. So far most of the anostracan fossils have turned out to be other things like mayfly nymphs with all their abdominal gills. Some Russians have published a few papers claiming that they have anostracan fossils back to the cretaceous, however, my understanding is that the papers have not been peer reviewed, were published in less than 50 copies, and are not available outside their institutes. I have been trying for many years to acquire the texts, with no success. The only reliable fossil anostracan I am aware of is from the Miocene.
The animals that I mentioned in my last missive are the genus Phallocryptus, which are found in salars. The south American beast is in the salars near Buenos Aires.
I know this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off Aroids. So if anyone else is interested in my crustaceans, we can continue this topic off line.
Grins,
Christopher
| +More | |
D. Christopher Rogers
Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
((,///////////=======<
EcoAnalysts, Inc.
1.530.756.4481
1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
1307 "L" Street
Davis, CA 95616
USA
?Invertebrate Taxonomy
?Endangered Species
?Ecological Studies
?Bioassessment
?Invasive Species
?Plankton
?Phycology
Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ? Joplin, Missouri
Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
ecoanalysts.com
-----Original Message-----
From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of brian lee
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 10:23 AM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
Dear Christopher and all,
Aloha.
Wow. There must have been some sort of refugia all that time to preserve your geomorphic features for the habitat of your shrimp. I would assume that is rare. What is the geologic history of the sedimentation or other processes of the region? Are we talking about Anostracan crustacea? I know you wrote a paper on fairy shrimp in Minas Gerais...could you resend me the pdf off forum?...I seem to have lost that to virtual world. Anostracans have a geologic history from the Lower Devonian, according to my Treatise on Invertebrate Paleontology. I do not recall the age of your geomorphic features...could you refresh my poor memory? I am most familiar with the Santana formation fossils of the Late Cretaceous of Brazil...when shallow seas or lacustrine environments existed....and the connection to African fossils of similar age are proven. I am assuming your geomorphic features predate that....perhaps by a significant period.
This is a very interesting point you bring up regarding tectonic movements and botanical evolutionary trends. Are there many references on the biogeography of the aroids?
Aloha,
Leland
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Christopher Rogers wrote:
> From: Christopher Rogers
> Subject: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
> To: "'Discussion of aroids'"
> Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 7:37 AM
> Hello Peter and Sin Yeng,
>
>
>
> I understand your difficulties! I wrote a paper a few years
> ago revising a
> genus of freshwater shrimp. There are three species in the
> genus, all found
> in rain pools on a very specific geomorphic surface: one
> species in North
> America, one in South America, and one in Europe and north
> Africa. The
> geomorphic settings are all very old, and at one time
> before continental
> drift, were all near each other at the equator. Using this
> I could estimate
> the age of the genus. So here is my question: are any
> ?primitive? aroid taxa
> limited to certain geomorphic features that can be traced
> through history?
> It may give you a means of estimating evolution rates for
> some higher taxa
> levels.
>
>
>
> Grins,
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>
>
> D. Christopher Rogers
>
> Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
>
> ((,///////////=======<
>
>
>
> EcoAnalysts, Inc.
>
> 1.530.756.4481
>
> 1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
>
> 1307 "L" Street
>
> Davis, CA 95616
>
> USA
>
>
>
> ?Invertebrate Taxonomy
>
> ?Endangered Species
>
> ?Ecological Studies
>
> ?Bioassessment
>
> ?Invasive Species
>
> ?Plankton
>
> ?Phycology
>
>
>
> Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ?
> Joplin, Missouri
>
> Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
>
> ecoanalysts.com_______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: botanist at malesiana.com (Peter Boyce) on 2008.08.06 at 05:51:05(18334)
Not alone, but with the addition of external data from modern distributions, molecular work and subsequent mapping, plus time line molecular work we can begin to get a handle on the family origin. The one thing that is irrefutable is that the aroids are at least early Cretaceous.
I was hoping that this thread would ellicit more responses on aroid-l than it has!
Peter
| +More |
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Rogers
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
Thanks, Peter!
Is that sufficient to establish a molecular ?clock??
D. Christopher Rogers
Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
((,///////////=======<
EcoAnalysts, Inc.
1.530.756.4481
1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
1307 "L" Street
Davis, CA 95616
USA
?Invertebrate Taxonomy
?Endangered Species
?Ecological Studies
?Bioassessment
?Invasive Species
?Plankton
?Phycology
Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ? Joplin, Missouri
Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
ecoanalysts.com
From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter Boyce
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:55 PM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
Hi Christopher,
The 'best fit' for this is the Lasoideae with Anaphllopsis on the Guiana Shield, Lasimorpha in West Africa Anaphyllum in S. India
very best
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Rogers
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 1:37 AM
Subject: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
Hello Peter and Sin Yeng,
I understand your difficulties! I wrote a paper a few years ago revising a genus of freshwater shrimp. There are three species in the genus, all found in rain pools on a very specific geomorphic surface: one species in North America, one in South America, and one in Europe and north Africa. The geomorphic settings are all very old, and at one time before continental drift, were all near each other at the equator. Using this I could estimate the age of the genus. So here is my question: are any ?primitive? aroid taxa limited to certain geomorphic features that can be traced through history? It may give you a means of estimating evolution rates for some higher taxa levels.
Grins,
Christopher
D. Christopher Rogers
Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
((,///////////=======<
EcoAnalysts, Inc.
1.530.756.4481
1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
1307 "L" Street
Davis, CA 95616
USA
?Invertebrate Taxonomy
?Endangered Species
?Ecological Studies
?Bioassessment
?Invasive Species
?Plankton
?Phycology
Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ? Joplin, Missouri
Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
ecoanalysts.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.08.06 at 19:43:13(18341)
Dear Pete and all,
Aloha.
Perhaps Dr. Ruth Stockey is lurking about on aroid-l...she and I have corresponded offline...we had a common connection with Betty
Speirs, an amateur fossil researcher of a site called Joffre Bridge in Red Deer, Alberta. Betty is no longer with us, but Ruth is in charge of her collections of fossils from Joffre Bridge. I am sure you know Ruth and her husband,Dr. Gar Rothwell...and their publications on fossil Araceae, including Cobbania.
If we do not hear from her, I'll drop her a line and see if we cannot include her on this discussion. She may be on summer vacation.
Aloha,
Leland
| +More | |
--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Peter Boyce wrote:
> From: Peter Boyce
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
> To: "Discussion of aroids"
> Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 7:51 PM
> Not alone, but with the addition of external data from
> modern distributions, molecular work and subsequent mapping,
> plus time line molecular work we can begin to get a handle
> on the family origin. The one thing that is irrefutable is
> that the aroids are at least early Cretaceous.
>
> I was hoping that this thread would ellicit more responses
> on aroid-l than it has!
>
> Peter
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Christopher Rogers
> To: 'Discussion of aroids'
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
>
>
> Thanks, Peter!
>
>
>
> Is that sufficient to establish a molecular ?clock??
>
>
>
>
>
> D. Christopher Rogers
>
> Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
>
> ((,///////////=======<
>
>
>
> EcoAnalysts, Inc.
>
> 1.530.756.4481
>
> 1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
>
> 1307 "L" Street
>
> Davis, CA 95616
>
> USA
>
>
>
> ?Invertebrate Taxonomy
>
> ?Endangered Species
>
> ?Ecological Studies
>
> ?Bioassessment
>
> ?Invasive Species
>
> ?Plankton
>
> ?Phycology
>
>
>
> Moscow, Idaho ? Bozeman, Montana ? Davis, California ?
> Joplin, Missouri
>
> Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
>
> ecoanalysts.com
>
>
>
> From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com
> [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter
> Boyce
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:55 PM
> To: Discussion of aroids
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
>
>
>
> Hi Christopher,
>
>
>
> The 'best fit' for this is the Lasoideae with
> Anaphllopsis on the Guiana Shield, Lasimorpha in West Africa
> Anaphyllum in S. India
>
>
>
> very best
>
>
>
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Christopher Rogers
>
> To: 'Discussion of aroids'
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 1:37 AM
>
> Subject: [Aroid-l] How old are the aroids?
>
>
>
> Hello Peter and Sin Yeng,
>
>
>
> I understand your difficulties! I wrote a paper a few
> years ago revising a genus of freshwater shrimp. There are
> three species in the genus, all found in rain pools on a
> very specific geomorphic surface: one species in North
> America, one in South America, and one in Europe and north
> Africa. The geomorphic settings are all very old, and at one
> time before continental drift, were all near each other at
> the equator. Using this I could estimate the age of the
> genus. So here is my question: are any ?primitive? aroid
> taxa limited to certain geomorphic features that can be
> traced through history? It may give you a means of
> estimating evolution rates for some higher taxa levels.
>
>
>
> Grins,
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>
>
> D. Christopher Rogers
>
> Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/ Taxonomist
>
> ((,///////////=======<
>
>
>
> EcoAnalysts, Inc.
>
> 1.530.756.4481
>
> 1.530. 383.4798 (cell)
>
> 1307 "L" Street
>
> Davis, CA 95616
>
> USA
>
>
>
> Invertebrate Taxonomy
>
> Endangered Species
>
> Ecological Studies
>
> Bioassessment
>
> Invasive Species
>
> Plankton
>
> Phycology
>
>
>
> Moscow, Idaho Bozeman, Montana Davis, California
> Joplin, Missouri
>
> Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
>
> ecoanalysts.com
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> _______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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